Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: WP2 on August 09, 2016, 02:59:02 PM

Title: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: WP2 on August 09, 2016, 02:59:02 PM
Needing a little help on my 2003 EV-T. Hydro motor with recall done by Speakers at zero miles when purchased NIB in 2009. 41,000 miles now meticulously maintained and been running great.

A little history...Tuned 200 miles ago, Fluids (no filter this time) about 100 ago. Needed to change the air filter and did last weekend. Tank off, filter changed then tank back on - pretty routine stuff..
Started it up and it sounds like the top end is coming apart (sounded perfect when turned off). Shut it right off and in a state of panic, I did as much research on the board as I could - eliminated exhaust touching frame and looked around seeing nothing out of the ordinary - noting seems loose.
Thinking I may have done something wrong reinstalling the tank (?) so I started to remove it again to see if something got jammed when I reinstalled. Pulled it back and a little up without disconnecting the hoses - started again - noise is still there.
Before I finish removing the tank completely, I thought I'd check with the group for advice on what to look for.
Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated. I'm close to a panic attack...

Thanks in advance.

Walt
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: fotoguzzi on August 09, 2016, 04:03:03 PM
can you record the sound? do the hydro lifters need to get pumped up? pull off a rocker cover for a look see?
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: rodekyll on August 09, 2016, 04:03:35 PM
Probably what you're hearing is valve clatter from the lifters not pumping up (it's a hydro).  I've not personally experienced a prolonged clatter after an oil change with no filter, but It could take a few more seconds to settle down than you're giving it.  Someone else might tell us what a reasonable time is for them to come up -- it's never been longer than a couple of seconds for mine.  Otherwise you need to be looking for the cause of no oil pressure at the lifters.
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: Rough Edge racing on August 09, 2016, 04:08:04 PM
 Is there any possibility a small object fell into the injection throttle bodies when you replaced the air filter?
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: Penderic on August 09, 2016, 04:19:41 PM
Time to look down the spark plug holes with your micro camera!

 :shocked:
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: CalVin2007 on August 09, 2016, 04:41:51 PM
Is there any possibility a small object fell into the injection throttle bodies when you replaced the air filter?

    :1:

  Terry
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: PJPR01 on August 09, 2016, 05:05:07 PM
Left a wrench in there by accident, sort of like a surgeon leaving a pair of scissors inadvertently in the patient??
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: Wayne Orwig on August 09, 2016, 05:57:21 PM
I would pull the valve covers and look for a loose adjuster. (yes, the hydraulic recall has adjusters that normally aren't touched)
Also, if is sat for a while, as mentioned, a lifter may simply need to get pumped up.
Check a valve for excessive clearance.

With the hydraulic lifters, is a tappet or cam lobe are wearing, you don't know it as it chews itself up and adjusts for it.
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: nick949 on August 09, 2016, 06:09:37 PM
You drained the oil. Did you actually put any in?  It can happen.
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: fotoguzzi on August 09, 2016, 06:17:59 PM
  Fluids (no filter this time) about 100 ago. 
You drained the oil. Did you actually put any in?  It can happen.
ewe..
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: WP2 on August 10, 2016, 11:12:57 AM
Thanks for the tips -
I'm confused because there was nothing done to the bike except the tank removal and air filter change. I'm pretty careful but with procedures and all my tools are accounted for and the oil change had a couple hundred miles on it.
 Going to retrace the air filter steps and get my look around under the tank and in the airbox. Then I will pull the pan and put a new filter and oil in just to be sure
If the clatter remains, I guess I'll have to pull the covers and see what I see - not sure what I'll be looking at - not totally familiar with the differences to be found. I've adjusted the valves on my '02 Stone many times but don't know the difference with the hydro top end.

Wish me luck.
Thanks
Walt
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: pehayes on August 10, 2016, 11:44:04 AM
If you can't record the noise, at least try to describe it.  If you didn't drain the oil and its been running fine for 100 miles since, then I doubt it is mechanical or oil related.  Based on the scenario you describe, my bet is that you may have reversed the wires connecting the electric petcock and the fuel level sensor.  Now the pump is trying to suck like crazy to combat the closed petcock.  Does it make the noise when you turn on the key?  Or do you actually have to start and run?  The good news is that you can just set the wires right and you'll be good to go with no noise.  The bad news is that you have permanently cooked your fuel level sensor.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: Dilliw on August 10, 2016, 12:57:48 PM
I have had the "lifter not pumped up" noise probably a dozen times since the recall fix.  The first time it did it was when I picked the bike up after the cam install and Carl told me what it was and not to worry about it. 

It sounds like a bad metal on metal knock coming from the valve cover.  It goes away after about 5 seconds though.
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: WP2 on August 10, 2016, 02:08:18 PM
If you can't record the noise, at least try to describe it.  If you didn't drain the oil and its been running fine for 100 miles since, then I doubt it is mechanical or oil related.  Based on the scenario you describe, my bet is that you may have reversed the wires connecting the electric petcock and the fuel level sensor.  Now the pump is trying to suck like crazy to combat the closed petcock.  Does it make the noise when you turn on the key?  Or do you actually have to start and run?  The good news is that you can just set the wires right and you'll be good to go with no noise.  The bad news is that you have permanently cooked your fuel level sensor.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

I'm not sure how to attach a audio file to a post - I did record it holding my phone about a foot off each valve cover and can follow instructions for posting or can mail it to those interested in hearing it.
As far as the oil goes - I did a change about 200 miles ago and it was the no filter change (just oil) all was well til I took the tank off to change the air filter.

As far as the electric Petcock goes - it has a manual and the electronic petcock connector is zip tied to the frame under the tank. Noticed that it was not capped off and contacts were visible - I'll seal it off now.

Today, I've removed the tank and gone thru the air filter routine and looked around - nothing amiss. Dropped the oil and replaced the filter just to be safe everything is clean and no metal on the magnetic plug. Pulled the right valve cover and it looks normal with oil pooled in the recesses (normal).
Don't know what to look for to verify the recall was done properly or at all - it was supposedly done by Jason Speaker when the bike was new - never have had reason to doubt his work or integrity. tho. I cant find the link on this board with pics of what to look for can anybody send me the link?

I'm going to leave it opened up until I've followed all the tips then close everything up and start it with fingers crossed.

Again, if you want to hear the audio - PM me your email address and I'll send it on.

Thanks all for the help so far.

Walt

Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: Kiwi_Roy on August 10, 2016, 02:37:25 PM
Did you add any gas in the process, anything else happen no matter how insignificant it may seem?

How long was the bike down between last running ok and the filter change

You say the knocking goes away after about 5 seconds, that might be how long it takes the hydro tappets to re-fill.

It really doesn't seem that you did anything to explain the noise.
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: rodekyll on August 10, 2016, 02:53:59 PM
I didn't read where the OP says the noise goes away in about 5sec.  Maybe I missed it.  OP?

I'm not going to listen to the audio on account of I'm deaf and don't do well with noise over electronic devices.

BUT -- I see where you inspected for top end oil by looking at the stopped engine for pooled oil in the head recesses.  All that proves is gravity.  Since you already have it on the center stand and the valve covers off, why not start it and make a big oily mess all over the garage visually check for oil oozing out of everywhere.  Have a rag ready to catch drips. 

While you're doing that, you can do the old-school collapsed lifter test: Put your finger on the heel of each rocker arm (push rod end) and then the toe end (valve end).  Can you feel lash at any rocker?  Does the quality of the noise change as you press on any one?  Then that's the bad boy.  Also, a stethoscope is your friend here.  It will tell you exactly where the noise is. 

We're assuming this is a hydro-related problem since the hydros have a bad reputation for making expensive sounding noises that they can back up with actual expenses.  Let's not dismiss the problems common to all the engines -- little end bushing, bad oil pump, etc.

 
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: Zoom Zoom on August 10, 2016, 02:59:39 PM
You mentioned you changed the oil. Is there any chance the filter is loose in the pan? (No oil pressure.)

John Henry
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: Sasquatch Jim on August 10, 2016, 03:12:00 PM
 Yes
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: chaoselephant23 on August 10, 2016, 03:32:36 PM
I'm not sure how to attach a audio file to a post - I did record it holding my phone about a foot off each valve cover and can follow instructions for posting or can mail it to those interested in hearing it.
As far as the oil goes - I did a change about 200 miles ago and it was the no filter change (just oil) all was well til I took the tank off to change the air filter.

As far as the electric Petcock goes - it has a manual and the electronic petcock connector is zip tied to the frame under the tank. Noticed that it was not capped off and contacts were visible - I'll seal it off now.

Today, I've removed the tank and gone thru the air filter routine and looked around - nothing amiss. Dropped the oil and replaced the filter just to be safe everything is clean and no metal on the magnetic plug. Pulled the right valve cover and it looks normal with oil pooled in the recesses (normal).
Don't know what to look for to verify the recall was done properly or at all - it was supposedly done by Jason Speaker when the bike was new - never have had reason to doubt his work or integrity. tho. I cant find the link on this board with pics of what to look for can anybody send me the link?

I'm going to leave it opened up until I've followed all the tips then close everything up and start it with fingers crossed.

Again, if you want to hear the audio - PM me your email address and I'll send it on.

Thanks all for the help so far.

Walt
Here is a post showing what a post-CAM recall hyrdo should look like under the valve cover: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=45144.msg677444#msg677444
NOTE: If the resolution on that photo isn't doing it for you, there are a few others before in the thread.

As for uploading the audio file, I find DropBox to be the best for posting things on forums. Upload to DropBox, next to the file click Link icon, click Copy Link, reply to a forum post, and past the URL into the reply changing dl=0 at the end of the URL to dl=1
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: LowRyter on August 10, 2016, 03:57:47 PM
If you can't record the noise, at least try to describe it.  If you didn't drain the oil and its been running fine for 100 miles since, then I doubt it is mechanical or oil related.  Based on the scenario you describe, my bet is that you may have reversed the wires connecting the electric petcock and the fuel level sensor.  Now the pump is trying to suck like crazy to combat the closed petcock.  Does it make the noise when you turn on the key?  Or do you actually have to start and run?  The good news is that you can just set the wires right and you'll be good to go with no noise.  The bad news is that you have permanently cooked your fuel level sensor.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

If you reversed them the low fuel light will be illuminated and the sensor is toast.
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: WP2 on August 10, 2016, 05:46:36 PM

I didn't read where the OP says the noise goes away in about 5sec.  Maybe I missed it.  OP?

I'm not going to listen to the audio on account of I'm deaf and don't do well with noise over electronic devices.

BUT -- I see where you inspected for top end oil by looking at the stopped engine for pooled oil in the head recesses.  All that proves is gravity.  Since you already have it on the center stand and the valve covers off, why not start it and make a big oily mess all over the garage visually check for oil oozing out of everywhere.  Have a rag ready to catch drips. 

While you're doing that, you can do the old-school collapsed lifter test: Put your finger on the heel of each rocker arm (push rod end) and then the toe end (valve end).  Can you feel lash at any rocker?  Does the quality of the noise change as you press on any one?  Then that's the bad boy.  Also, a stethoscope is your friend here.  It will tell you exactly where the noise is. 

We're assuming this is a hydro-related problem since the hydros have a bad reputation for making expensive sounding noises that they can back up with actual expenses.  Let's not dismiss the problems common to all the engines -- little end bushing, bad oil pump, etc.

Thanks - you are correct. the clatter does not stop after a few seconds - it's there and thus my concern.

I have everything exposed now looking for the obvious - nothing stands out. I'll button everything up except for the valve covers and check it as you describe. I'm a bit confused on what to look for but take instruction very well. What is a "little end bushing"? Does the fuel pump fail all at once? I turned it off and the next time I started it...the loud clatter.

I'll get the tank on and the oil pan back on tonight and then address your procedure for checking the valves.

Thanks for the input.

Walt





Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: oldbike54 on August 10, 2016, 05:50:32 PM
 Small end bush is the bushing in the small end of the connecting rod .

 Fuel pumps won't make that sound .


 Dusty
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: WP2 on August 10, 2016, 05:56:53 PM
Did you add any gas in the process, anything else happen no matter how insignificant it may seem?

How long was the bike down between last running ok and the filter change

You say the knocking goes away after about 5 seconds, that might be how long it takes the hydro tappets to re-fill.

It really doesn't seem that you did anything to explain the noise.

no gas added - only thing else I touched is adjusting the shift linkage (nope, not touching anything it shouldn't).

Going to try and post the recording in a minute.

Walt
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: swooshdave on August 10, 2016, 06:11:53 PM
no gas added - only thing else I touched is adjusting the shift linkage (nope, not touching anything it shouldn't).

Going to try and post the recording in a minute.

Walt

YouTube may be a good option too.
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: PJPR01 on August 10, 2016, 06:15:44 PM
Is the sound the same if the bike is on the side stand or the center stand?  Definitely an engine noise, not a vibration noise?  Is the side stand perhaps loose as heck and moving around?
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: rodekyll on August 10, 2016, 06:16:30 PM
Once it's running, work quickly to check things.  If the clatter is significant, prolonged running isn't going to improve things.  The visual and push tests of the rocker arms should take less than a minute.  Then already have the stethoscope ready to probe around the engine. 

What does the oil pressure light do while this is happening (too much to expect an actual GAUGE -- who needs it?   :rolleyes:  )?
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: jmac851 on August 10, 2016, 06:24:56 PM
The fuel pump can make a terrible clattering noise if the tank valve is not opening all the way or the hose is kinked.
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: WP2 on August 10, 2016, 08:22:26 PM
Thanks everyone for the suggestions; I'm a little slow in getting things done today...90 degrees and humid in the garage, but I wanted to say thanks for the suggestions so far.

I've pulled the tank and air filter to check if I did things correctly - I did and I have all my noting left in the airbox.

Dropped the oil and changed the filter - nothing amiss in the pan - magnetic plug was clean and the oil was clean (200 miles). Oil filter was not loose (I'm a hose-clamper)

Pulled the valve covers - looks good to my inexperienced eye.

I'll start it in the AM when I'm in a better mood and if it's still loud, I'll look for oil flow in under the valve covers.

I've been asked to describe the sound - it's like the 5 seconds on first start after an oil change maybe a tad louder - just doesn't go away after a bit. I'm afraid to run it very long if it's oil starved...we'll see in the morning if it is.

One further question - does an oil pump fail "right now" with no warning? How do I confirm that it may have?

Again - thanks for the input and sorry if I'm being a PITA but I'm retired, it's summer and I ride this thing every day and plan to be trippin for most of September.

Walt


















Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: WP2 on August 10, 2016, 08:31:19 PM
Is the sound the same if the bike is on the side stand or the center stand?  Definitely an engine noise, not a vibration noise?  Is the side stand perhaps loose as heck and moving around?

Noise is there on sidestand and center stand and for the 100 yard ride.
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: WP2 on August 10, 2016, 08:34:50 PM
Once it's running, work quickly to check things.  If the clatter is significant, prolonged running isn't going to improve things.  The visual and push tests of the rocker arms should take less than a minute.  Then already have the stethoscope ready to probe around the engine. 

What does the oil pressure light do while this is happening (too much to expect an actual GAUGE -- who needs it?   :rolleyes:  )?

Thanks - I'll grab a stethoscope right after my morning coffee and before I test it. Good to have another tool.
Oil light lights with key and goes out normally after starting.

Walt
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: WP2 on August 10, 2016, 08:38:23 PM
The fuel pump can make a terrible clattering noise if the tank valve is not opening all the way or the hose is kinked.

I'll double check that. It's a manual petcock (don't know why - previous owner...) and I had trouble with it when I originally removed the tank. Thought it was closed and still sprayed gas until I got the pliers on it.

Walt
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: WP2 on August 10, 2016, 08:42:00 PM
I think I got dropbox figured out - lemme know if you can access it.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/vdiqfehoiws0vmx/EV-T%20Noise.wav?dl=0

Walt
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: rodekyll on August 10, 2016, 09:29:00 PM
Ok -- so we have oil pressure.  That's good.  Add the description of the 5-sec clatter for a 100yd run and I think it could be a lifter not pumping up.  If so, it could be a relatively easy fix (assuming the cam follower or cam lobe isn't the reason for the lifter not pumping up).  I think that's where I'd concentrate my first efforts.  While you're poking around, make sure the bolts holding the rocker pins aren't somehow too long, and that the rocker pins are flowing oil well.  Getting those all clapped out will make a racket, and a very common mistake is to use screws that are too long and plug the oil passages.  Also make sure the pushrods are not broken or bent and that the end caps haven't come loose.

You say you dropped the oil and saw noting unusual -- no swarf, shrapnel, shinies, or chunks.  That helps rule out a catastrophic rod bearing or piston failure in progress -- also good. 

Oil pressure good and no unusual oil stuff indicates the oil pump hasn't instantly failed.  That's good, but it doesn't rule out an oil pump problem any more than these other indirect observations rule out anything else.  They just boost confidence.

 
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: chaoselephant23 on August 10, 2016, 10:57:29 PM
I could access the sound file. Puts to rest the theory that my EVT hydro is noisy :rolleyes: I believe rodekyll is onto something with the lifters not pumping up. To check, open the valve cover. Then push down on the rocker where the adjuster nut is. If the rocker moves by hand, that lifter is bust. When the lifter is pumped up, Herculean strength is needed to push down on the rocker arm. If you haven't already check if the adjuster nuts are loose. Moving onto the rocker spindle bolt length as rodekyll has mentioned. Fingers crossed for an easy fix.
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: Wayne Orwig on August 11, 2016, 08:45:33 AM
Have you checked the valve clearances yet to see if a lifter is collapsed?
Is there oil flowing around the rockers when running?
Are the adjusters tight?
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: xackley on August 11, 2016, 02:04:55 PM
I would pull the plugs, check them for oil and gas.
Turn the engine over to see if it spits anything out.
If you do not have a compression gauge, put your thumb over the plug hole and see if it is pushed away when turning the engine.
If they are not the same the low side is the problem.
Then remove the covers, turn over the engine with spark plugs out, use your fingers and ears to examine.
If you don't spot a problem, lay down cardboard and start the engine.

Don
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: WP2 on August 11, 2016, 02:38:47 PM
A hot garage update...

Pulled the valve covers and started it - initially very loud (new oil change and no valve covers). Then it settled down in volume and may sound "normaler" to me - less than initial panic mode, maybe ok, but I'm a bit paranoid now.

While the covers were off I did the push test and visual - no movement on the push test and not knowing exactly what to look for the visual seemed ok. It sprayed pretty well with the covers off so I thing oiling is ok.

I am having a mechanic friend (Guzzi) stop over on Saturday to have a listen and look for the finer things that you guys have suggested - so for now, I'm on hold and may as well detail it while it's on the lift.

A couple questions...hydro valve clearances - don't know them - same as my 02 Stone? Bolts holding the rocker pins - what is too long and what is the correct length?

Thanks all for the input so far - I'm pushing my knowledge/comfort level here and will wait for an experienced tech help me better understand all that you speak about.

Thanks.

Walt


Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: rodekyll on August 11, 2016, 02:51:24 PM
Hydro valves -- don't know them?  Don't touch them!  Hydraulic valves are set with a special 'slug' before the valve train gets final assembly.  After that they are not touched again in normal operations.  If you have a collapsed lifter (and if you can't see or feel one and the stethoscope can't find one you probably don't have a collapsed lifter) then the lifter is replaced by removing the rocker and push rod for that hole, pulling the lifter (a piece of rubber hose works good) and dropping a new one in.  There should be no need for adjusting it afterward -- it 'pumps up' to self-adjust.

Rocker bolts that are too long go clear through the pin wall and into the oil galley.  Bolts that are not too long go through the top wall of the pin but not past the wall.  I don't remember the mm length.  But a visual check should tell you what you need to know.
Title: Re: Am I doomed? Lotsa noise
Post by: WP2 on August 15, 2016, 12:03:46 PM
Update
Problem solved??
Had my buddy some over to help me see and understand things that were being recommended - we went thru all the recommendations together. Nothing amiss.

Very loud clatter when started...let it run for about 5 minutes and it settled down to more normal, not perfect but more like I am used to. The experienced "screwdriver ear" said it wasn't the lifters, but being transmitted from somewhere else.

Yesterday, I took it out for about 100 miles and another 60 this morning - it is it's old glorious self. Weird to me.

Besides going thru all the recommended things to look for and adjusting nothing, all I can think of that may have affected the noise is the suggestion by jmac851 that the petcock may be involved.  I had trouble with it fully closing when removing the tank and may have not fully reopened it. Thanks for that suggestion - it was so far off of my original search for culprits, I never would have found it.

I want to thank everybody for their responses. Not only did I get my issue resolved, but I learned a lot about the bike and the thought processes that go into diagnosis. Over the years, I have learned so much from the members here through simply reading posts - I learned something and I hope others may have benefited from this thread as well.

Thanks to all.

Walt