Wildgoose Chase Moto Guzzi

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: brider on January 08, 2018, 08:16:37 AM

Title: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: brider on January 08, 2018, 08:16:37 AM
I have a Guzzi contact I trust about 90 mi from me that I could ship my heads to, but I don't think they are Guzzi or even cycle-specific. As long as I'm shipping, does anyone have a shop they would recommend, and a general $$ I could expect to replace guides and grind seats, with my supplied parts?
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: Kiwi_Roy on January 08, 2018, 08:23:40 AM
I don't have a contact but I will say don't try to do it yourself, I put the ones in my Eldorado but still had to send it to the shop for grinding in, I think it was about $400 C$
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 08, 2018, 08:27:19 AM
brider: PM'ed you.
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: JayDee24ca on January 08, 2018, 09:28:47 PM
I sent the heads for my Convert out to a shop in PA, Longs Mechanical. No website, but google the name of the shop and you will see a lot of terrific feed back from BMW and Guzzi riders alike on various forums. Apparently he is "da bomb" for airheads, as they used to say, and is very familiar with Guzzi as well.
Here is the address:
Randy Long
Long's Mechanical Services
R.D. 1, Box 685-K
74 Risbon Road
Honey Brook PA 19344

He cleaned and inspected both heads, reground the valves and lapped them in, installed new guides and removed and helicoiled one exhaust stud. Cost, including shipping was around was 275 USD.
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: JayDee24ca on January 08, 2018, 09:33:11 PM
Here is a link to a bit of background on Longs Mechanical
http://home.jtan.com/~joe/randy_long.htm
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: brider on January 09, 2018, 08:50:21 AM
I sent the heads for my Convert out to a shop in PA, Longs Mechanical. No website, but google the name of the shop and you will see a lot of terrific feed back from BMW and Guzzi riders alike on various forums. Apparently he is "da bomb" for airheads, as they used to say, and is very familiar with Guzzi as well.
Here is the address:
Randy Long
Long's Mechanical Services
R.D. 1, Box 685-K
74 Risbon Road
Honey Brook PA 19344

He cleaned and inspected both heads, reground the valves and lapped them in, installed new guides and removed and helicoiled one exhaust stud. Cost, including shipping was around was 275 USD.

Thanks for that contact info! Anyone searching for my subject buzzwords will get his link (including me 2 months from now when I get around to pulling my heads).
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: Lannis on January 09, 2018, 11:16:10 AM
There are a surprising number of small, unheralded shops around that can and will do that sort of work for you (well, me, anyhow).

I generally get my cylinder heads done by a guy who runs a lawnmower business, but who I happen to know has racing experience with BSA B50s, and who does a bang-up job on air-cooled motorcycle cylinder heads and barrels (boring, fitting pistons, new valves and guides, etc).

Another guy builds race car frames up by TIG-welding, and is an artist with a TIG torch.   He's done cylinder fin repair for me many a time.

For more extensive jobs or jobs that are very Guzzi or BSA specific (universal joint repair, BSA crank shimming) I send off to the specialists we all know and love, but it's nice to be able to drive to the place you're getting it done sometimes ...

Lannis
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: n3303j on January 09, 2018, 11:22:02 AM
Randy Long does excellent work and is interesting and enjoyable to talk to. He often has a backlog of work.

Leo Goff (Memphis Motor Werks) also does excellent head work and he will personally work with you to assure your satisfaction. He receives your heads and quickly does triage. He calls you with a quote and a ship (from his location) date. If you okay the work the heads are usually back in your hands within a week. Leo's prices are higher than Randy's. Both do high quality work. If you are in a rush Leo might get your job done sooner.

http://www.memphismotorwerks.com//shop
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 09, 2018, 11:50:14 AM
The local shop that does my heads charges $270 to clean, media blast, replace the guides and recut the seats. Excellent work at a reasonable cost. Usually a two-week turnaround.
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: Dukedesmo on January 09, 2018, 03:10:52 PM
After a piston-to-valve incident I had the heads overhauled on my LM2.


I had the guides K-lined rather than new guides as I understand it's a better product and avoids any potential damage to the heads of guide removal plus needing to source the correct guides.
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 09, 2018, 03:31:55 PM
After a piston-to-valve incident I had the heads overhauled on my LM2.


I had the guides K-lined rather than new guides as I understand it's a better product and avoids any potential damage to the heads of guide removal plus needing to source the correct guides.

I checked with every shop within 75 miles of me and none of them do K-Lines. If done right, there is little chance of damaging the head while removing the guides. "Correct guides" are easy sourced. I've been using those supplied by either MG Cycle or Kibblewhite with excellent results.
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: acogoff on January 09, 2018, 03:36:27 PM
     For some reason K-lining is not offered in my area (upper midwest USA). I have asked at a couple of different automotive machine shops and all I get is a blank look and a "never heard of it" answer. As far as I know it was invented in the US. Maybe I have not looked hard enough. It looks like the cats meow for our older iron to me.
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: kidneb on January 09, 2018, 06:55:38 PM
     For some reason K-lining is not offered in my area (upper midwest USA). I have asked at a couple of different automotive machine shops and all I get is a blank look and a "never heard of it" answer. As far as I know it was invented in the US. Maybe I have not looked hard enough. It looks like the cats meow for our older iron to me.

I dont get it either,- why isn't it more well known among classic bike riders ? Very few people know about it here as well,- I even had a specialist at a cylinder head workshop here telling be that it was not possible when I asked if he did K-lining and explained how it was done   :rolleyes:  I sent my LM3 heads to the Cylinder Head Shop in England in 2009 to have Len Paterson do it.
 http://cylinderheadshop.com/k-line-guide-liners/ I know Pete R has been doing it for years.

I actually communicated with a guy here on a danish mc-forum yesterday about K-lining, and he does it himself. There are kits available for not scary big money. It shouldn't be much more complicated than doing a helicoil repair.

http://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/kl1608nx.html

http://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/kl1608rx.html
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: Chuck in Indiana on January 09, 2018, 07:13:09 PM
Seriously.
*I've not done it* but looking at the videos, it is simple ordinary every day machine shop work that could be done by anyone with an IQ higher than one of Pete's shaved apes.
political stuff deleted.
At any rate, if I needed it done, I'd order a kit and do it. <shrug>
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: rodekyll on January 09, 2018, 08:25:21 PM
As I understand it, K-lining is most commonly used to repair iron guides in iron head and non-replaceable/unobtanium guides by boring them out and installing a phosphor-bronze liner.  For those situations it might be a viable alternative to replacing a guide.  But AFAIK the standard BB Guzzi guides are already phosphor-bronze, so you don't really get any additional benefit from the K-lining.  All you're doing is adding layers of work to what should be a simple R&R.

Guzzi guides are also pretty cheap (~$12/ea), and as Charlie says, with basic skills and equipment it's really hard to screw up installing a valve guide.  To replace one you heat up the head, drive out the old guide and press in the new one.  I've seen guys do both operations successfully with an air hammer.  I prefer to use a press.  Once the head is hot it's about a 30sec operation.  Then you ream the guide for the valve stem, dress the seat for concentricity and seal, and reassemble the head.  All fun while you have the tools and nothing goes amiss.

To answer the OP directly, I think Charlie's jobber charging $270 to clean and overhaul a head is reasonable.  Rebuilding a head is unit work.  The best guy for the job is a head rebuilder.  The head rebuilder does heads in his machine shop, where he's heavily invested in the tools for the job.  He's spending a lot of his day looking at heads.  I know that Moto International farmed out their machine work.  I'm betting most of the other actual dealers do as well.  So if you sent your heads to a Guzzi shop they'd probably be jobbing them out and taking a broker's cut for handling it.  Their only hands-on would be supplying parts.
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: chuck peterson on January 10, 2018, 06:07:04 AM
Brider, there is a shop in New Haven that'll do great, no shipping needed. I've visited your place in Orange once...

Pete Nizen is on Whalley Ave down near Broadway...est 1920 something...usually reworks caterpillar motors...but has a niche with pre ww1 cars...and has worked for many of us Guzziti in the area...rebuilt an entire loop frame motor for Timmy, heads/valves for me and others...3rd generation...lots of fun to watch him spin up a caterpillar crankshaft...30 or more 4-5 foot cranks being reground at any one moment. I asked him if I could work for free...."we get that a lot..."

About 2 short blocks further into town from the guzzi dealer, New Haven Powersports on the same side, just behind Rubbermatch Waterbeds....know the area?
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: Rough Edge racing on January 10, 2018, 06:43:34 AM
I checked with every shop within 75 miles of me and none of them do K-Lines. If done right, there is little chance of damaging the head while removing the guides. "Correct guides" are easy sourced. I've been using those supplied by either MG Cycle or Kibblewhite with excellent results.

 Yes and Kibblewhite makes excellent guides...replacing guides and machining the valve seats is routine but some shops just won't do it correctly..you need to make sure the shop won't sink in the valves and when done the valve seat is concentric with the guide center line..Some shops have $300,000   single axis valve facing machines that can keep tolerances to half a thousands of an inch..Some shops have careful skilled machinists that can keep close tolerances using hand held equipment...But too many shops do somewhat sloppy valve work....
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: brider on January 10, 2018, 08:16:36 AM
Brider, there is a shop in New Haven that'll do great, no shipping needed. I've visited your place in Orange once...

Pete Nizen is on Whalley Ave down near Broadway...est 1920 something...usually reworks caterpillar motors...but has a niche with pre ww1 cars...and has worked for many of us Guzziti in the area...rebuilt an entire loop frame motor for Timmy, heads/valves for me and others...3rd generation...lots of fun to watch him spin up a caterpillar crankshaft...30 or more 4-5 foot cranks being reground at any one moment. I asked him if I could work for free...."we get that a lot..."

About 2 short blocks further into town from the guzzi dealer, New Haven Powersports on the same side, just behind Rubbermatch Waterbeds....know the area?

Yes, I know the area well, I take my wheels to NH Powersports to balance them and look at the new Guzzis.......they didn't really excite me much (the Guzzis).

THANKS FOR THE PETE NIZEN TIP! I knew someone in this area must exist that could do a Guzzi head, figured this forum was the best place to start looking. I don't have a problem shipping anymore, but local is always best. Does his business have a name, or should I just wander that section of Whalley and look for him?

I think I remember you! Aren't you on the West Coast now??? Didn't you stop by to look at my Eldo when I was selling it? I still laugh at the guy who bought it, he had to sneak it home before his wife saw it....I knew then it was going to a good home!
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: Madtownguzzi on January 10, 2018, 10:20:42 AM
Seriously.
*I've not done it* but looking at the videos, it is simple ordinary every day machine shop work that could be done by anyone with an IQ higher than one of Pete's shaved apes.
political stuff deleted.
At any rate, if I needed it done, I'd order a kit and do it. <shrug>

Way back in high school auto mechanics I rebuilt a 1960 VW engine and I knurled the valve guides just like in this you tube. It was not called K lined back then.  It was easy to do and the bug ran me many miles on my JC Whitney over haul kit I bought.  Here is the link to the Video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN4_oKsUdvA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJx-5sus4yA
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: oldbike54 on January 10, 2018, 10:33:46 AM
 Roper recommends K lines in Guzzi engines , he should know , right ? Our local engine builder has done several air cooled heads for me , in fact he let a couple of us watch the process . It isn't magic .

 Dusty
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: luthier on January 10, 2018, 03:38:48 PM
From what I understand Pete says the alloy in Guzzi heads of the older varieties tends to be a bit dodgy [soft and porous] so knocking out the guides is something only to be done as a last resort. K-lining is much more gentle on the old beastie. It's the same problem with new seats which need peening  or centre punching around the outside after a refit or they  may have a tendency to get loose or fall out.
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: Curtis Harper on January 10, 2018, 04:42:01 PM
Harper's has been doing Guzzi heads since 1970, we've seen a few.
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: Antietam Classic Cycle on January 10, 2018, 04:51:12 PM
Roper recommends K lines in Guzzi engines , he should know , right ?

Yes. BUT, if nobody around here does them, it's a little bit difficult to have them done, no? I guess I could shell out the $566 for the basic kit and another $106 for the liners and do them myself...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ8AnUKANpA&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: rodekyll on January 10, 2018, 05:14:35 PM
Yes. BUT, if nobody around here does them, it's a little bit difficult to have them done, no? I guess I could shell out the $566 for the basic kit and another $106 for the liners and do them myself...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ8AnUKANpA&feature=youtu.be

The $566 is only the entry fee.  I could see investing in the kit and the companion tools to use the kit if I was planning to go into the business, but if I'm in it for a one-off, V $12/ea for new guides?  I don't think so.

I have to reject Pete's argument for K-lining as it's been presented.  Maybe Pete can be more convincing.  If the alloy was that dodgy, we'd be seeing porous, cracked heads, pulled spark plug threads, guides and seats falling out of heads, and all the other signs of inferior metallurgy on a constant, regular basis.  We don't.  With the proper tools and techniques a guide replacement is as uncomplicated as R&R-ing a wrist pin.
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: Bobbilljim on December 20, 2018, 04:21:19 PM
Late to the party as usual, but I had a good machinist friend put new guides in mine. I removed the old by heat and a hand press. I backed up the head with a chunk of aluminum with the center drilled out to allow the old guide to fall through. Nice and smooth.

Maybe Pete gets a kickback on K-line?😂
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: pete roper on December 20, 2018, 10:16:41 PM
The $566 is only the entry fee.  I could see investing in the kit and the companion tools to use the kit if I was planning to go into the business, but if I'm in it for a one-off, V $12/ea for new guides?  I don't think so.

I have to reject Pete's argument for K-lining as it's been presented.  Maybe Pete can be more convincing.  If the alloy was that dodgy, we'd be seeing porous, cracked heads, pulled spark plug threads, guides and seats falling out of heads, and all the other signs of inferior metallurgy on a constant, regular basis.  We don't.  With the proper tools and techniques a guide replacement is as uncomplicated as R&R-ing a wrist pin.

Hadn't been following this, sorry.

K-lining has several advantages over guide replacement. Not only is there the matter of the ease of the operation compared to replacement and the lessening of the risk of damage to the head casting but using liners means that the valve's concentricity with the seat is kept meaning less material will need to be removed when re-cutting the seat.

Also because the liners are scrolled they have the ability to lubricate better and this actually seems to prolong life of the liner over and above that of the parent metal of the guide. A good case in point with this can be illustrated with big valve LeMans heads. These are bloody murder on valve guides whether they have got liners in or not but in my experience you'll get about half the distance again out of linered guides as you will out of straight replacement.

Now obviously there is nothing wrong with re-guiding and if the guides are loose in the head obviously an OS guide is the only answer but as long as they are still firm in the heads I'll take K-lining every time. We used them on the race bike. I've used them in countless 'Warmed over' engines including those running stupidly aggressive cam profiles and will be sticking a set in my *New* Hydro Cali when I have time to freshen up its top end! Never had an issue, not once. It's a very good system and my local engine shop does it for very little money so I don't have to! :grin: Messing around re-guiding stuff and trying to seat valves with hand cutters? Sure I can do it but why would I bother when they can K-line and have a SERDI bench!

Sadly I don't think they make K-lines small enough for 8V valves.

Pete
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: Rough Edge racing on December 21, 2018, 05:30:34 AM
 I have the valves done on my vintage race Triumphs done for about $120 at Carl McQuillen Racing engines in Leroy NY..This is on a $300,000 Newen single axis machine. I do my own guides but having guides replaced or liners installed is $100-$200...Price for a Guzzi would be slightly higher because it's two heads...
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: Don G on December 21, 2018, 10:25:06 AM
Pete what size are the valve stems on the 8 valve engines? K-Line makes a 5mm, 5.5mm and 6 mm kit.  DonG
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: John Croucher on December 21, 2018, 11:26:32 AM
I was given a price of $150 each including duel plugging.  I left the heads and walked out the door, grinning.  I will be adding valve guide seals also. 
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: pete roper on December 21, 2018, 12:26:16 PM
Pete what size are the valve stems on the 8 valve engines? K-Line makes a 5mm, 5.5mm and 6 mm kit.  DonG

They do? OK. I stand corrected.

Pete
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: bodine99 on December 22, 2018, 12:45:44 PM
+1 for Leo Goff. He has been at this a very long time and has a A-1 reputation
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: Moto on December 22, 2018, 02:03:16 PM
It sounds like shops could have a motive not to k-line if there is less money in it for them. Call me a cynic.

Moto
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: Frenchfrog on December 22, 2018, 02:51:09 PM
Exactly my thinking too....
Title: Re: Valve guide replacement-machine shop suggestions?
Post by: Rough Edge racing on December 22, 2018, 03:41:08 PM
+1 for Leo Goff. He has been at this a very long time and has a A-1 reputation
Goff had/has major health issues and I understand he is taking time off...I know Triumph guys who are waiting for over a year to get bike heads done.. They are asking for more than a standard guide and valve job so maybe it takes so long..