Author Topic: Help with Norge rear suspension  (Read 492 times)

Offline drdwb

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Help with Norge rear suspension
« on: March 16, 2019, 08:56:07 AM »
My 2007 Norge rear suspension has never been touched to my knowledge, it has 37,000 miles on. Iím looking for help from you experts about how deep I need to go to find and fix the known issues with lack of grease and any other issues that need to be attended to. Iíve got the shop service manual, thanks to who ever posted the link to cadre cycle.
What I need to know is what special tools do I need? What parts will I destroy and need to replace doing the service. The manual mentions a hook spanner Is necessary ( which I donít have ) and that a clip,seal,and bushings will be destroyed getting into the bearings.
I have a good shop set up,probably most of the tools,the time, and the naive confidence gained by successfuly crabbing the frames and restoring the clutch plates on a 2004 Stone and my 2003 EV, and doing all the sorting out necessary to keep those 2 as well as our other bikes running.
So Iím looking for help, guidance, and a little encouragement that I can tackle the Norge rear end issues.
Thanks for any suggestions, even if they are to take it to a shop.
Dave
07 Norge, 05 Baby Breva, 04 Stone  Touring , 03 EV, 82 650 Maxim 79 XS750 Special 78XS1100 Teraplane side car

Offline tris

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2019, 09:39:11 AM »
Just done the same job on my B11 - you will need

You could probably do the preload bush with a punch but it'll be much easier with a hook spanner or the pin socket

14mm Allen socket to get the axle out

Torque wrench plus usual hand tools

Some way of holding the back of the bike up from above or with a bit of creativity you can do it off the centre stand. Let me know if you're thinking of doing this and ill explain how i did it.
Do NOT remove the lower bolts on the side brackets with the bike on the centre stand. The bike will fall over

Apart from that be methodical and you'll be fine

Also do a Google for something on it by Pete Roper he has explained it more than once plus there's a good write up in Guzzitech for the Stelvio that's a great help

Go for it👍

« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 09:42:56 AM by tris »
2005 Breva 1100 (non ABS) "Bruno"
with molested Sacred Screw - NOT BY ME!!!
1995 Cali 1100 - carby   "Dino" -now SOLD


Offline tris

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2019, 09:46:06 AM »
Oh you might have difficulty getting the bolt between the  swing arm and the suspension linkage out

If you do take it of with the link attached and do it in the vice
2005 Breva 1100 (non ABS) "Bruno"
with molested Sacred Screw - NOT BY ME!!!
1995 Cali 1100 - carby   "Dino" -now SOLD

Offline drdwb

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2019, 11:19:46 AM »
Tris thank you very much for the reply. I included a link to the excellent step by step pictures of the process  Leafman66 produced.  Thank you Leafman,  (CRAC Swing arm service for dummies )  more properly referenced by Lannis as Stelvio Swingarm Service post  just in case someone else stumbles across this.



I have the good fortune of not only having a HB bike lift but also a very heavy duty ceiling mount bracket which with the help of a heavy duty come along can safely lift  over a 1000 lbs, it came in very handy with crabbing the Californiaís frames. What I donít have is the Castle Nut tool or a adjustable hook wrench. So this job may have to wait another week or so.
Thanks for your encouragement and reference. And as always thanks to the Wild goose members who take the time to contribute their expertise.
Dave

Anyone know for certain the size of the Castle Nut tool. The shop manual just lists a special tool # and I didnít see the size referenced in the Leafman66 post. My local NAPA has Castle Nut sockets on hand but I need a size. Guzzi tech has them for $34.95 with out size reference, time or cost for shipment.

http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=66579.msg1021807#msg1021807
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 11:48:44 AM by drdwb »
07 Norge, 05 Baby Breva, 04 Stone  Touring , 03 EV, 82 650 Maxim 79 XS750 Special 78XS1100 Teraplane side car

Offline kingoffleece

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2019, 04:38:17 PM »
I'd suspect that at 37,000 your rear shock is completely consumed and in need of replacement.
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Offline tris

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2019, 01:41:59 AM »
IIRC the cheapo hook spanner I bought covered 33mm but there is a drawing of the pin socket somewhere on the tinterweb I'm sure

And my sincere apologies to Leafman for pointing you at the wrong site. It was that thread I was aiming for  :embarrassed:
2005 Breva 1100 (non ABS) "Bruno"
with molested Sacred Screw - NOT BY ME!!!
1995 Cali 1100 - carby   "Dino" -now SOLD

Online Huzo

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2019, 08:08:54 AM »
Be careful not to dislodge the seal on the right hand (throttle) side, when you slide the pivot pin back in.
Thereís a solution if you need to hear it.
Also, remember the needles in the rollers are not caged..
I put a Nitron shock in mine @ 95,000... :thumb:
Do NOT rely on the centre stand to hold the bike while working, the mounting bracket will swing around on the one bolt and the whole shooting match will go arse up..! (Almost.. :embarrassed:)
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 08:11:14 AM by Huzo »

Offline drdwb

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2019, 11:32:23 AM »
Huzo

thanks for the heads up on the uncaged needles, Iíve ordered a Castle Nut socket from Guzzi tech to do it right. About the shock, really 37,000 would need replacement, Most of the miles Iíve put on are solo,and only a few 1000 mile trips loaded. I donít know about the first owners loads, but the second owner only put 2000 miles on in 3 years, so while I did ask in the original post about what needs to be addressed, I didnít expect the shock to be suspect. The  Nitron shocks and others like Weberís Iíve looked at seem to start around $699 and go sky high from there.

I love the way my riding abilities seem to have improved riding my Norge compared to my EV, which was a great leap from my Yamahas, but at my current skill level, my tires when changed have a lot of tread left on the sides, so Iím not a knee dragger, even in my most wildest imagination at 65 I donít see much change coming there, unless I hit the big one, retire early and devote my life to ridding. So Iím wondering about the cost effectiveness of investing in an expensive upgrade that I may not even notice.

Any thoughts, suggestions, Arguments relative to this point would be appreciated!
Thanks
Dave
07 Norge, 05 Baby Breva, 04 Stone  Touring , 03 EV, 82 650 Maxim 79 XS750 Special 78XS1100 Teraplane side car

Offline tris

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2019, 02:56:27 PM »
......
Do NOT rely on the center stand to hold the bike while working, the mounting bracket will swing around on the one bolt and the whole shooting match will go arse up..! (Almost.. :embarrassed:)

I beg to differ slightly Huzo - it can be done but ONLY if you do some prep work.

This is the way I had to do it as I don't have the structure above I'd trust to hold the bike

With the bike on the side stand remove one of the side brackets. With it out of the way you then use a couple M8 bolts, washers and nuts and secure the center stand brackets to the frame - effectively replacing the 2 bottom bolts that secured the side bracket

Do the same on the other side and you have a functioning center stand with no side brackets (whatever the proper name is) on the bike

I secured the center stand to the front wheel to make sure I couldn't rock the bike off it and kept reminding myself to be cautious

I believe that holding the bike from above is the better option if you can do it, but this does work if needs must
2005 Breva 1100 (non ABS) "Bruno"
with molested Sacred Screw - NOT BY ME!!!
1995 Cali 1100 - carby   "Dino" -now SOLD

Online Huzo

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2019, 04:08:08 PM »
I never thought to do that Tris..
Good one, next time I will.

Offline kingoffleece

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2019, 07:28:40 PM »
It's not really a matter of turning your Norge into a MotoGP bike.  A worn out shock is just that-worn out.
I'd think you can get a Hagon made for less that 600 bucks.  Be sure to get the remote pre-load.  Or, Hamlin may have a take-off OEM for you.
It's worth a call and he does so many shock upgrades he may very well be able to assist.  But, going so far as to take everything apart it seems senseless not to address the issue.  Especially if you're going to ride the bike and keep it for a while.  Crappy shocks wear out components, compromise comfort, and wear tires faster.

You might also look for a rebuildable take-off and have the guts rebuilt.
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Offline drdwb

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2019, 08:59:11 PM »
Kingoffleece,
I understand the sensible logic of not having to redue maintenance, after all Iíll be in there and it wonít add much time. But I question the necessity, maybe I havenít been paying enough attention to Norge posts here,but I havenít seen any posts regarding 07 Norge shock failures. Please correct me if Iím wrong on this. Iíve had the bike for 5 years and put on around 15,000 miles on it, I havenít noticed any appreciable decrease in handling or performance.
Again Iím not an overly aggressive rider,so itís entirely possible the performance was not all it could be from the beginning. The Norge was such an impressive upgrade to my EV that it didnít occur to me that the ride could be improved even more. So Iíll take your advice and look into it a bit more.

Are you (or any one reading this) aware of a bench test one can do to check function?
Also you mentioned Hamlin, do you have any contact info for him/them?
Thanks for your response and input.
We have probably 2 more weeks of snow to melt and cold weather before the roads are safe for ridding here, so I think Iíll have time to get a shock if needed.

Dave
07 Norge, 05 Baby Breva, 04 Stone  Touring , 03 EV, 82 650 Maxim 79 XS750 Special 78XS1100 Teraplane side car

Offline kingoffleece

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2019, 10:31:45 PM »
Hamlin Cycles.  Google will take you to the web site.  Jim will assist you.

As for shock failure, or not, a few things happen.  One, a shock will simply wear out.  At 37,000 miles no question water, dirt, and grit have slipped past the seal.  That rear shock lives in a very difficult environment.  Next, performance degrades over time and is gradual.  You may not really notice it.  Third, the OEM spring rate was changed after your bike was built to improve the overall performance.  That tells you the factory felt it could do better.

As mentioned, refreshed shock(s) improve all aspects of the experience-you don't need to be a racer and by your response a simple refresh may very well suffice.  Do you HAVE to?  Of course not.  Many don't.  If I was you, and I realize I'm not, at 37,000 miles I'd ditch and replace the OEM as I'd be quite sure that's it's rubbish.  Going thru what's involved to do the other work would suggest to me quite strongly to take care of all items serviceable while the back end is serviced.  You don't have to and if you don't want to-it's all good.

While we talk about the Norge, you should also know that the bodywork traps heat rather well around the rear brake fluid container.  I've seen the fluid cooked on many occasions and, in fact, ruined mine in ONE brutal New England summer day in a traffic jam.  It turned dark brown and smelled, and if you've cooked brake fluid you understand what it smells like.

I'm certainly not the Oracle of Delphi for all things service, I just dislike doing things twice.   YMMV.
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Offline kingoffleece

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2019, 10:35:27 PM »
I guess I should be more clear.  Shock absorbers do and will wear out.  They all have a service life.  Most times it's a worn out situation as opposed to a outright failure.  I've only had one shock blow out-all the others wore out.

Anyway, it's been good chatting and all the best!
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Online Huzo

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2019, 12:20:43 AM »
On the topic of rear shocks copping abuse through water/dirt ingress.
I put a rear hugger on my Ď07 Norge and the shock does not get dirty.



Itís barely visible behind the pipe/muffler on the left side.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2019, 06:23:35 AM by Huzo »

Offline kingoffleece

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #15 on: March 18, 2019, 06:08:21 AM »
You are correct, sir.  They help-alot.  So do Shock Socks.  Our friend her, though, is a bit behind on that, or those, as the case may be.
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Offline drdwb

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2019, 07:59:35 PM »
Gentleman I now have time tools, and a brand new unused shock from a 2016 thanks to Jim at Hamlin cycle , $150.00 plus shipping, thatís Guzzi cheap. Now what is the technique for not messing up the bushing on the right hand side when Iím putting it all back together? I also ordered a shock sock which should be here unless the storm of the century messes that up. If I can get the cars out of the garage Iíll be tackling this Saturday between shoveling. Were suppose to be getting between 8- 12 inches.
07 Norge, 05 Baby Breva, 04 Stone  Touring , 03 EV, 82 650 Maxim 79 XS750 Special 78XS1100 Teraplane side car

Online Huzo

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #17 on: April 11, 2019, 04:29:16 AM »
One day Iíll tell you the joke about getting 8-12 inches...!
Itís in the same club as the one about the miniature organ grinder monkey and the 9 inch pianist...
As for the seal though.
I made a small bush that goes between the seal and the inner race on the throttle side.
(Actually I put one in both sides, but the second one is superfluous.)
You need to ensure that there is an air gap between the bush and the race inner though, or youíll be compressing the race against the seal when you torque the tapered rollers.
Really, the bush is there so when you insert the pivot pin and it contacts the seal on the throttle side, it wonít fall arse over head out of itís register.
Do give the pin a good tubbing when you have it out though, they can be as tight as a fishes arse on occasions and if you clean it and apply some lube, itíll slide in like a..
Ummm....
Slidey thing... :wink:
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 04:36:02 AM by Huzo »

Offline drdwb

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2019, 03:04:49 PM »
Huzo could you be a bit more descriptive about the details of the bush, could it be a large thin plastic or metal washer I might find at a hardware store? Iíve gone through the pics a couple times to familiarize myself with the process, perhaps it will become evident when Iím actually taking the thing apart.
Thanks for the help.
Dave
 
07 Norge, 05 Baby Breva, 04 Stone  Touring , 03 EV, 82 650 Maxim 79 XS750 Special 78XS1100 Teraplane side car

Online Huzo

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2019, 04:26:18 PM »
Yeah it could be the requisite number of washers glued together if you like.
Dimensionally speaking..
It needs to be an inside diameter to loosely slide over the small end of the pivot pin.
Outside diameter about 1/4Ē bigger.
Thickness, whatever space exists between the seal and the race, minus about 20 thouí.

Offline drdwb

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2019, 04:49:25 PM »
Thanks Huzo
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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2019, 06:58:17 PM »
No worries.
When I pulled the pin the first time to sweep out the dry, rusty and wretched remains, of what was once a set of tapered rollers, I noticed the mangled remnants of the ďsealĒ that had been bashed into the register in Mandello, then Liberaceíd by the pivot pin upon assembly.
So in effect, it never had any seal for the first 90,000 k...!
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 06:59:39 PM by Huzo »

Offline ITSec

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Re: Help with Norge rear suspension
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2019, 08:26:03 PM »

Kingoffleece,
I understand the sensible logic of not having to redue maintenance, after all Iíll be in there and it wonít add much time. But I question the necessity, maybe I havenít been paying enough attention to Norge posts here,but I havenít seen any posts regarding 07 Norge shock failures. Please correct me if Iím wrong on this. Iíve had the bike for 5 years and put on around 15,000 miles on it, I havenít noticed any appreciable decrease in handling or performance.
Again Iím not an overly aggressive rider,so itís entirely possible the performance was not all it could be from the beginning. The Norge was such an impressive upgrade to my EV that it didnít occur to me that the ride could be improved even more. So Iíll take your advice and look into it a bit more.


Actually, the shock was one of the things (thankfully) upgraded by Mandello between the 2007 and 2008 models. The 2007 shock was less capable than the one fitted to all later years of the Norge, and couldn't begin to deal with two up or a full load. Even that upgrade wasn't enough, and many Norge owners have gone aftermarket for both the shock and for one or another of the possible fork improvements. My stock shock lasted 22,000 miles before it became bouncy as all **** - and I have used an aftermarket unit ever since, with excellent results (140,000 miles now).
ITSecurity
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2013 Stelvio NTX - Copper
2008 Norge GT - Silver

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