Author Topic: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice  (Read 14069 times)

Offline Xlratr

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Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« on: May 16, 2014, 05:43:39 AM »
Iím new in the forum, so first of all Iíd like to say ďHiĒ, and thank the people who set this all up for making this kind of thing possible. It looks like an excellent source of information.

By way of a Guzzi introduction, Iím located in north Germany; currently have an 850T3 and a Stelvio NTX. Iíve previously also owned a Quota 1000.

This question is directed at all those with experience with Stelvio (2 Lambda models) fuelling issues. Sorry itís a bit long, but Iíd like to share all my thoughts on this.

I purchased my Stelvio NTX (8 Valve) two years ago and I really like it. I have since fitted a Zard silencer with DB killer. There are no other modifications. As I say, I love the bike, and the only real issue I have with it (apart from the groaning clutch when cold!) is the very jerky throttle and transmission when rolling the throttle on and off in slow traffic. (TBs are synched OK and TPS is reset. Valves are set at 10 and 15 thou mm).

To avoid this jerkiness in those situations, I need to use the clutch. My old 850 T3 is really smooth in that area and just potters along. I used to think this was because the factory maybe lightened the flywheel for more responsiveness vs. the old bikes. But as some test reports talk about the "heavy" Stelvio flywheel, I began to think there may be another reason. So after reading lots of threads, I now think this is a fuelling issue due to lean mixture in the closed loop. (The exhaust does pop on overrun).

I am not really knowledgeable about FI systems, but after reading whatís been written here, I think I now understand about open and closed loops, and the effect of Lambdas. So if I want to make the bike run more smoothly at the low end I think I have these two options:

OPTION 1: Install an o2 Modifier.
That should ďtrickĒ the ECU into thinking the Lambdas are registering a too weak AFR, and increase the amount of fuel slightly.
PROs: Basically I think the idea of a Lambda is cool; as long as you can make it adjust the AFR to how you want, letís say 13.4:1. Plus, the 8V has two of them, so Iím really getting a signal from each cylinder. And an O2 Modifier would assure me on having the AFR ratio stable across all operating speeds in the closed loop. Plus, I don't need to start playing with my ECU, which I feel a bit hesitant about.
CONís: Itís another part that might fail. And I may still be too lean on Open Loop with the Zard fitted. And if I understand the arguments of Pete Roper correctly, I shouldnít get too fixed on AFR anyway, as after-market exhausts with different harmonics and resistance may allow more unburnt fuel to flow through the 8V engine and mess up the AFR readings. (Although I hope my Zard WITH dB killer is still OK on that).

OPTION 2: Switch off the Lambdas.
Here I would use GuzziDiag, the Reader/Writer and Tuner Pro to create and write a new map with the Lambdas off. (I still havenít got a working cable, and I havenít tried GuzziDiag yet, but I hope that will be solved soon).
PROís: It seems like a really neat solution. I donít know if it works like that, but maybe any adjustments I make to the CO on top of switching the Lambdas off will also benefit the Open Loop.
CONís: Writing anything to the ECU is a bit scary! Iím not a professional and if I have to start making other changes to the mapping because the Lambdas arenít there to make corrections (e.g. general mapping changes, delta maps etc.!!), it might get out of hand. I might over or under fuel the motor and damage something long term!

A full blown EC Re-Flash with Power Commander does not seem like the way to go, and I rule that out for the relatively small problem I have. (On top of that, I might be wrong but logically I donít understand why a re-flashed ECU would need an additional controller. Seems like potential for system conflicts. Or have I missed the point?).
 
So finally, here are my questions:

1) What are your opinions on O2 Modifier vs. Lambda Off?
2) If I switch off the Lambdas, does that mean the motor operates in Open Loop across the whole rev range?
3) With Lambdas off and no other adjustments (donít forget the Zard!), what kind of AFR could I expect below 4,000rpm. (And to some extent, does it matter??)
4) Would I need to adjust CO on top of just switching them off, and if so, what kind of values work well on the Stelvio 8V?
5) Does an adjusted CO value effect the range above 4,000 (i.e. Open Loop)?
6) If I adjust CO in GuzziDiag, is that adjustment stored in the map when I save it again? Would GuzziDiag continue to show those +/- values each time I rewrite the map?

Thanks for your patience in reading all of this. As I say, Iím new to this FI stuff, and I hope the questions arenít too stupid!

Have a great weekend!
John

I ain't too young to realize, that I ain't too old to try ...

Vasco DG

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2014, 06:02:23 AM »
No stupid questions. You'll probably get a lot of stupid answers.

Sorry, I'm about to go to bed. 'Beetle' is a bit more of a night owl so you may get a response from him before I reply more fully. Remember though that we are Australians and therefore know f*ck all about anything.... :D

Pete


beetle

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2014, 06:33:40 AM »
1) What are your opinions on O2 Modifier vs. Lambda Off?

IMO an O2 modifier is a kludge. In fact I'm opposed to any of these add-on tricks. Turn your lambda off instead.

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2) If I switch off the Lambdas, does that mean the motor operates in Open Loop across the whole rev range?

Yes.

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3) With Lambdas off and no other adjustments (donít forget the Zard!), what kind of AFR could I expect below 4,000rpm. (And to some extent, does it matter??)

You'll be running more rich, but not horribly so. The Zard actually requires a slightly richer mixture down low, or at least it does with the 8V Griso.

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4) Would I need to adjust CO on top of just switching them off, and if so, what kind of values work well on the Stelvio 8V?

Quite likely. The Zard comes into play here. When you switch your lambda off, warm up the engine and adjust CO until your idle is smooth. The actual CO trim value depends on a number of factors. Exhaust, plug temp, state of tune etc.

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5) Does an adjusted CO value effect the range above 4,000 (i.e. Open Loop)?

 IMO it does, but the effect is negligble.

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6) If I adjust CO in GuzziDiag, is that adjustment stored in the map when I save it again? Would GuzziDiag continue to show those +/- values each time I rewrite the map?

Yes. CO trim is non volatile. Unless you disconnect power to the ECU.

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Thanks for your patience in reading all of this. As I say, Iím new to this FI stuff, and I hope the questions arenít too stupid!

Have a great weekend!


No such thing as a stupid question. Don't be afraid. You can't hurt anything if you only turn off the lambdas and adjust CO trim.


Offline Xlratr

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2014, 01:10:48 AM »
Well, you live and learn!

LESSON 1:
My USB cable arrived for the GuzziDiag. After reading all the tips, I was more careful about how I searched in eBay. The first one I received didnít work, but this new one is much different to the first! It has the FTDI chip, and the circuit board looks much more complicated and better built than the first. And it works!  ;)

LESSON 2:
Donít assume that just because a dealer had the bike that they actually did something with it!
The only part of working on my bike that I havenít done myself (except for the first 1,000km service for warranty reasons) has been the FI. Because I thought only a dealer could do all the TPS stuff. But now I have GizziDiag!  :)

Hooked the bike up to my old vacuum gauges last night and saw that the balance was off at both 3,000 rpm and at idle. Not by a lot, but it wasnít perfect! Then I saw in GuzziDiag that the TPS showed 4,6į. Also, not exactly where it should be. So, either it has slipped since the dealer had it, or they didnít set it right!

*In preparation for the Synch job I pressed the TPS Reset, and it then went to 4.8į. Perfect!
*Screwed in the Air Bleed valves. (Actually, I didnít actually close them because they were both fully shut, suggesting to me that the bike was either mechanically perfect when it left the factory, or nobody ever did a TB balance. I wonder which!)
* Balanced the TBs at 3,000rpm.
* Reset the TPS, that was now showing 5,1į. Now back at 4,8į
* Balanced the Idle with one of the Air Bleed Valves.

What a difference!
Much smoother, and the jerky problem I had at slow speeds isnít quite gone, but significantly better! And keep in mind that the balance was not off my a long way!

After that, I read the MAP down to my computer (telling myself all the time, ďIím not really gonna change this and write it back!!Ē  ~;), and went in the house to play!

IĎve turned off the Lambdas in the map on my computer.
Iím considering also making another map by retarding the ignition advance a couple of degrees at low revs, to help smooth it out a bit more at low traffic speed.
The question is, will I really take the plunge and write these maps back or will I just leave it as it is?
Hhmm. Iím worried I might have found a new drug!!!  :o

Thanks to Beetle and Pete for the feedback. Iím impressed at your reaction times! Iíll keep you updated if (when) I do more.
John

I ain't too young to realize, that I ain't too old to try ...

Vasco DG

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2014, 06:23:38 AM »
If you want to change stuff just make sure you have saved your original map so that if you create a monster you can just go back to where you started.

FWIW I've found that all the W5AM bikes are much more sensitive to TB balance than earlier bikes and the 8V's in particular like to be as close to spot-on as possible.

While I find that there is often evidence on bikes I service of simple tasks not having been performed previously something like a TPS being 0.2 of a degree out can well be the result of different tooling being used. The figure is only a baseline for interpretation by the ECU and something as simple as a grubby connector or longer cable could alter the perceived figure.

At the end of the day like any vehicle they run better the closer they are to being tuned properly. While this would seem to be self evident and obvious it seems to still be a subject that can cause dissent. I have no idea why....

Pete

Offline Xlratr

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2014, 09:26:31 AM »
Good Point about saving the original Map, but I already had, and also backed it up on another computer! You just never know! :-)

So I went ahead and installed the new map with the Lambdas turned off. No other adjustments.

What can I say? It's another huge improvement! I can ride through roundabouts with no surging, and no need to pull the clutch. Much smoother roll on and off, and it now feels much less "digital". It's actually much more like a carb bike now. It feels as if there is slightly less engine braking, which for me makes sense, as it suggests the bike is fuelling slightly more with the throttle shut. I suppose that's why the roll on is smoother. And the exhaust popping is now gone.

I'm a happy chap and don't think I'll change anything else!  ;-T

As you said Pete, the balancing seems to be critical, and switching the Lambdas off on top of that has made it perfect.

Thanks to Beetle to proposing to go this way.

All the best!

PS: Still in awe about what you can do with GuzziDiag!  :bow
John

I ain't too young to realize, that I ain't too old to try ...

beetle

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2014, 05:34:13 PM »
I'm a happy chap and don't think I'll change anything else!  ;-T


Good work! 

I think the stock map in the 2 lambda Stelvio's is one of the better factory maps in the 8V models.  You may still want to adjust the CO trim.
Here's my tutorial: http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=69168.msg1070349#msg1070349



Offline Xlratr

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2014, 06:53:11 PM »
Thanks Beetle. That's a nice tutorial. Now I know what I'll be doing Sunday afternoon!  ;)


John

I ain't too young to realize, that I ain't too old to try ...

Offline Xlratr

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2014, 08:29:01 AM »
Last adjustments (I think!).

I made a little matrix in Excel to progressively and slightly reduce the ignition Advance in the area below 2,750 rpm and 15 degree throttle, keeping the same shape as the original map. So most of the map remains original, just the top left hand corner falls off a bit steeper. I put that in Tuner Pro, and loaded the map.

No big difference! Maybe a marginally smoother idle, and very slightly smoother roll on at minimal throttle. But it might just be in my head. At least I didn't break anything! :-)

Then I did the CO adjust as Beetle described. On my bike I couldn't get near -20. Below -15 it almost stopped running, and at -5 it was a bit rougher. So I've left it at 0 Trim. At least it's good to know that even with the Lambdas off, it doesn't seem to be running too rich.

So, I just have to stop fiddling now. I won't get it better than this!

Have a good one!
John

I ain't too young to realize, that I ain't too old to try ...

beetle

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2014, 05:09:52 PM »
Then I did the CO adjust as Beetle described. On my bike I couldn't get near -20. Below -15 it almost stopped running, and at -5 it was a bit rougher. So I've left it at 0 Trim. At least it's good to know that even with the Lambdas off, it doesn't seem to be running too rich.


Kind of what I expected with the stock 2 lambda Stelvio map. As I previously mentioned, it's one map the factory got right. For example, the Griso map is stupidly rich (with lambda off).

 ;-T
« Last Edit: May 18, 2014, 05:10:34 PM by beetle »

Offline BlizzGuzz

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2014, 10:17:28 AM »
OPTION 2: Switch off the Lambdas.
Here I would use GuzziDiag, the Reader/Writer and Tuner Pro to create and write a new map with the Lambdas off. (I still havenít got a working cable, and I havenít tried GuzziDiag yet, but I hope that will be solved soon).
PROís: It seems like a really neat solution. I donít know if it works like that, but maybe any adjustments I make to the CO on top of switching the Lambdas off will also benefit the Open Loop.
CONís: Writing anything to the ECU is a bit scary! Iím not a professional and if I have to start making other changes to the mapping because the Lambdas arenít there to make corrections (e.g. general mapping changes, delta maps etc.!!), it might get out of hand. I might over or under fuel the motor and damage something long term!
Hi there,

I have a Stelvio 2012 model very much like yours, Xlratr: with Zard slipon with dB-killer in it. And I'm very interested in the 'switch of the Lambdas' solution.
But I can't of the life of me figure out how to do this in Guzzidiag  ???

Someone willing to guide me step-by-step to do this?

Vasco DG

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2014, 10:30:02 AM »
Download the map, open it up with Tunerpro, check the three, (In the case of twin lambda sensor bikes) flags associated with O2 sensor function, save the new map, upload it back into the ECU.

Alternatively you could ask the OP to just flick you his bin file in an email and save yerself the hassle. Your bike is a twin O2 sensor bike yes?

Pete

Offline BlizzGuzz

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2014, 10:39:51 AM »
Download the map, open it up with Tunerpro, check the three, (In the case of twin lambda sensor bikes) flags associated with O2 sensor function, save the new map, upload it back into the ECU.

Alternatively you could ask the OP to just flick you his bin file in an email and save yerself the hassle. Your bike is a twin O2 sensor bike yes?

Pete

Thanks for the quick response!

It's a twin 02 sensor bike, yes.
What if I just want to switch of the lambdas and keep the map as it is? Read in another post in this thread that the Stelvio map is one of the better already. Wanna try that first with switched off lambdas.   

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2014, 10:52:01 AM »
Whatever you do, read and save the bin fine that is in your ECU before you modify anything.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientist have discovered...."

Vasco DG

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2014, 11:51:42 AM »
Thanks for the quick response!

It's a twin 02 sensor bike, yes.
What if I just want to switch of the lambdas and keep the map as it is? Read in another post in this thread that the Stelvio map is one of the better already. Wanna try that first with switched off lambdas.   

Yup, that's how you do it.

As Wayne says though make sure you save your original map in case you screw up.

Pete

Offline BlizzGuzz

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2014, 12:08:00 PM »
Yup, that's how you do it.

As Wayne says though make sure you save your original map in case you screw up.

Pete
Ok.
Problem is that I don't get access to ECU from TunerPro...  ???
The ignition is on and the Guzzidiag cable connected. But no connection between TunerPro and the ECU.
What am I missing here...?

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2014, 12:11:08 PM »
Ok.
Problem is that I don't get access to ECU from TunerPro...  ???
The ignition is on and the Guzzidiag cable connected. But no connection between TunerPro and the ECU.
What am I missing here...?

Tunerpro doesn't know the ECU. It only modifies files on the PC.

You first use the reader to read the binary from the ECU. You want the IAW5xreader.
You then use Tunerpro to modify the binary. You also need the 5AM XDF file to configure Tunerpro.
Then use the writer to write it back to the ECU. Use the IAW5xwriter.


« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 12:15:48 PM by Wayne Orwig »
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientist have discovered...."

Offline BlizzGuzz

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #17 on: May 19, 2014, 01:12:13 PM »
Tunerpro doesn't know the ECU. It only modifies files on the PC.

You first use the reader to read the binary from the ECU. You want the IAW5xreader.
You then use Tunerpro to modify the binary. You also need the 5AM XDF file to configure Tunerpro.
Then use the writer to write it back to the ECU. Use the IAW5xwriter.
Still no luck...  :(
The cable is connected and the main program, Guzzidiag, is working. But there's no connection between IAW5xReader V0.22 and the ECU. And I don't understand why...  :-\

I noticed, by the way, that I was able to adjust the CO trim with Guzzidiag. Does this mean that the lambda sensors already are switched off?

Sorry for all these noobie-questions... I thought that Guzzidiag was straightforward and easy to use, but not that easy for everybody, obviously...

But thanks for your replies anyway. I quit trying to figure out more this evening. A fresh new start tomorrow, maybe...  ;)
No running problems with the Gooze, BTW. Just curious to try the "Xlratr method" since our 2012 model bikes have the same configuration - the ZARD slipon  :):


Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #18 on: May 19, 2014, 01:16:19 PM »
Still no luck...  :(
The cable is connected and the main program, Guzzidiag, is working. But there's no connection between IAW5xReader V0.22 and the ECU. And I don't understand why...  :-\

Are you using GuzziDiag at the same time that you are trying to use the reader?
Only one program at a time can use the cable. Make sure you close GuzziDiag before doing the read or write.

You can fiddle with the trim with the lambda on, but it doesn't do anything since the lambda overrides it. (as far as I know)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 01:17:00 PM by Wayne Orwig »
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientist have discovered...."

Offline BlizzGuzz

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #19 on: May 19, 2014, 01:33:21 PM »
Are you using GuzziDiag at the same time that you are trying to use the reader?
Only one program at a time can use the cable. Make sure you close GuzziDiag before doing the read or write.

You can fiddle with the trim with the lambda on, but it doesn't do anything since the lambda overrides it. (as far as I know)
Ok, thanks.
Gonna look into this tomorrow  :).

Offline Xlratr

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2014, 01:40:21 PM »
Hi BlizzGuzz

My Stelvio now runs considerably better than one week ago. The reasons for that are:


A: I balanced the throttle bodies, got Guzzidiag and then reset the TPS. (Balancing the throttle bodies is easy if you have vacuum gauges. Itís just a couple of screws. It's just important not to turn the wrong one!)

B: I adjusted the valve clearances to 10 and 15 thou mm (inlet and exhaust respectively). The engine is mechanically very quiet).

C: I switched off the Lambdas! (I was hesitant to do this because it involved changing the map and I was considering a different modification. But Beetle on this forum said it was the better way and encouraged me to do it. Itís not difficult, and actually quite fun!)  :)

Pete already wrote the steps you need to follow, but as Iím a ďnewbieĒ  and my experience with this is still fresh, it might also help you to hear what I encountered. For this Iíll assume that Guzzidiag is not yet installed, as this may be the case for others who are reading. This is what you need to do:


1. Go to this site:  http://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/Guzzidiag/

2. Click on the links to download all the following:

Guzzidiag v0.41. (For looking at engine data, and servicing your bike with the TPS reset this is all you need. But if you want to adjust the map, and we do, you will also need the other stuff on there too)

IAW5xReader V0.22: This is the software to read your Map from the bike to your computer, after which you can adjust it. There is another reader called 15x, but this one does not work for the Stelvio. You need the 5x! The file you will be saving to your computer after connecting to the bike  is a .bin format file.

IAW5xWriter V0.20: This is the software you need to write the adjusted map back to your bike.

FTDI Driver/Treiber: This is the driver you will need to connect the cables to your bike.

TunerPro: This is located at the bottom of the page. It is the software you will use to adjust the map that is stored on your computer after reading it.

5AM V1.26 Two Lambda:  This is found in one of the white boxes near the bottom of the page. I made the mistake of thinking this was a map. It isnít! It is an .xdf format file and is a template that TunerPro uses to display the data loaded from your map from the motorcycle. So when you start TunerPro, you first open the .xdf template, and then you open the .bin file to fill it with data.

I recommend now finding all those downloaded files on your computer and putting them all in a folder somewhere that you can easily find. Right click on each zipped folder and unzip them. The programmes can now be opened from each unzipped folder, or installed as required. Make sure to install the driver. I then made shortcuts to the Guzzidiag, Reader, Writer, and TunerPro  and put them on my Desktop.

You will read in the forums about selecting the COM port when you start Guzzidiag.  I couldnít see any com port when I launched the software and I was worried that something was missing. Later I discovered that you can only see the com port in the software when you have your cable connected.

At this stage I should say that both tools, Guzzidiag and TunerPro are free. I think thatís wonderful. You will find a button to make a voluntary donation via PayPal, which you should do!

3. Make sure you get the right cables. You need one to connect to the plug on your bike, which looks like this:

OBD2 3 Pin to 16 Pin Adapter
http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0053NRLHE/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Then you will need the USB adapter to connect that cable to your computer. This is the tricky one, as they are available with different chips inside, and only one particular kind will work. The first one I ordered did not work. Make sure to order one with an FTDI chip inside. Some suppliers mention it in the product description.
This is the one I found by googling ďUSB FTDI OBD2 KKLĒ
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B005R0OQ12/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

4. You will need to install the Adapter cable to your computer by just plugging it in to a USB port. It should find automatically the FTDI driver that you downloaded and installed earlier.

5. Connect the cables to the interface plug located under the seat on the right hand side of the airbox, and to your computer. Connect the red (+) and black (-) cables on the 3 PIN lead to your battery.

6. Start Guzzidiag. You can select your motorcycle from the list. You will also now see the com port  highlighted to which your cable is attached. Probably it will be COM4. (if for any reason you need to check which Port the cable is attached to, you can check the Ports in ďDevice ManagerĒ on a windows computer, but you will only see it there if the driver is installed and the cable is attached).

7. Select ďConnectĒ from the Guzzidiag menu, and now you can see all your engine data! Change the selection of data by using the pull downs as required.

8. If you have balanced your throttle bodies you should now reset your TPS (throttle position sensor) in Guzzidiag, with the motor off!!! Choose ďActorsĒ from the menu and then click on the button TPS Reset. Go back to the main screen and if you have selected ďThrottleĒ as one of the options, you can see it now shows 4.8į (for the Stelvio!). (By the way, doing the TPS reset only really makes sense if you know that the throttle bodies are synchronised. Synchronising them balances the amount of air getting to the motor on each side, and TPS reset makes the amount of fuel the same. Just resetting the TPS is only half the job).

9. To read your map, you must now close Guzzidiag and open the Reader software. Reader and writer wonít work if Guzzidiag is open.

10. Press ďReadĒ and wait for the file to load. It takes a while but you can see the progress on the green bar. When saving to your computer you can name the file however you want. It is saved on your computer as a .bin file. I called mine ď3222ST02.binĒ as this is the designation for the original Stelvio map, but you can choose whatever name you want.

11. Make a copy of that file on your computer and keep it in a safe place. Itís your original map!

12. Copy that map and give it a different name, e.g. ď3222ST02-MOD.binĒ. Any changes you make will be done in this file.

13. Open TunerPro on your Computer.

14. From the menu, open the .xdf template that you downloaded from the Guzzidiag web site (ď5AM V1.26 Two LambdaĒ ).

15. Now also from the menu, open the .bin file you have made, eg. ď3222ST02-MOD.binĒ

16. If you want, by selecting the pull down menu ďTuneableĒ you can now have a look at all the ignition and fuel data from your map. You can change all kind of parameters here, but we wonít do that in this example.

17. To turn off the Lambdas, all you need to do is find the three red flags at the bottom of the ďtuneableĒ menu.  Double click on each, and then remove the tick from the little box. Thatís all you need to do to deactivate them. Do that with all three flags and then go to the top menu and save the .bin file. Thatís the only job you need to do in TunerPro, so you can now close the programme.

18. Connect all the cables to your bike and start the writer software. Select the new map you have made from your computer and press ďwriteĒ. You will now be asked to switch on the ignition and press OK. I donít know why, but the first 4 times I tried, I got the message ďInitialization Failed Ė switch off ignition and wait 10 secondsĒ. I just kept trying and on the fifth time it wrote the map successfully. Maybe I needed to wait a few seconds longer after switching on the ignition? Just try a few times if you have this problem.

Thatís it!

After you ride and the engine is warm, you can then adjust the CO trim in Guzzidiag if needed. You can only adjust the CO trim now that you have turned the Lambdas off. Adjust it down until it starts to run a bit rougher and then go back up a bit. You can experiment until you get a smooth idle and minimum exhaust popping. At the end of the day mine was fine without any additional trim, but Beetle said that other bikes (Griso) definitely do need some trim.

Enjoy the new smoother ride.

I donít know who made Guzzidiag, but thank you! It's great!
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 02:23:04 AM by Xlratr »
John

I ain't too young to realize, that I ain't too old to try ...

Offline BlizzGuzz

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2014, 02:32:09 PM »
Wow!

This tutorial is a lot more than I could ask for!  :drool
I will most definitely try again tomorrow evening.

Many, many and even more thanks to you for the time to write this excellent and very easy to understand manual, Xlratr!!

I'll keep you posted, for sure  :D.

Stelvio-buddy
AJ
from Norway  :bike

Offline BlizzGuzz

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2014, 01:35:22 PM »
I did it this afternoon!
Tried my best to sync the throttle bodies at ca. 3000 RPM and air bleed screw at idle and TPS reset after each of these adjustment. Have a HMB-Guzzi synchrotester, but still not 100 % sure I got it right. Need a hand to keep the throttle steady when synchronizing the TB's... 4.60 after TPS reset. Is that within what's acceptable? Or is it supposed to be 4.80 accurate?
Anyways, I'll take another round with that if needed after a longer test ride tomorrow.
After a short test round after doing the job this afternoon, my butt-dyno tells me that the Stelvio seems more responsive - and faster  :drool!

To be continued...  ;) ;D

Offline Xlratr

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2014, 03:42:41 PM »
Hi BlizzGuzz.

I don't think you really need to keep the motor running steady at 3,000 rpm if you find that difficult. You might end up with a very hot motor and angry neighbours! :-).

Just run it up to around 3,000, with the synchroniser attached and check the reading. Let it drop off to idle and adjust the screw in or out as necessary. (It must be the one that adjusts the length of the rod running through to the other side of the bike and to the right throttle body. Do not turn any other screw!).

Run it up to around 3,000 again and check your synchroniser again. If they are now better balanced, you turned the screw the right way! :-). If not, turn it the other way. Repeat until both sides show the same reading. It can all be done pretty quick. In fact, the quicker the better to avoid over-heating.
(Keep in mind, this should be done with both air bleeds screwed fully in. Those are the brass Allen head screws tucked away under the throttle bodies. They're tricky to get at, and it helps to have ball head Allen keys for that. You may find it easier to remove the plastic starter motor cover to get at the one on the left side. Screw them in carefully without using force!)

When you've got the throttle bodies nice and balanced at 3,000 rpm it means the amount of air flowing through both throttle bodies is the same. Then you connect Guzzidiag and do the TPS reset with the motor turned off. By doing that you've now synchronised the amount of fuel to both cylinders.

After that, restart the engine and and check your synchroniser at idle. Screw out the air bleed screw on the throttle body showing the highest vacuum reading until your synchroniser shows they are balanced at idle. Should be nice and smooth now.

That's it.
Don't forget to put the rubber caps back on the synchroniser connections.

PS: I think the standard TPS position on the Stelvio is 4.8, but it might well be a bit different depending on the bike. I don't think the actual reading is so important in itself. It's just necessary to do the reset after you synchronised the throttle bodies so that the ECU thinks both left and right sides are the same.


NOTE: Maybe it helps to think of it like this. When you synchronise the throttle bodies, you're mechanically changing the position of the butterfly valve in the right side throttle to balance the airflow. But the TPS (throttle POSITION sensor) is also located on the right side. It now "senses" that something has changed and starts "asking" the ECU for more/less fuel to the right hand side than before. By doing the TPS reset, you're telling that sensor that everything is cool and it should go back to requesting the same (standard) amount of fuel on each side.

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« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 02:33:54 AM by Xlratr »
John

I ain't too young to realize, that I ain't too old to try ...

beetle

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2014, 04:39:09 PM »
4.6, 4.7, 4.8...it don't make no nevermind.  ;-T

Offline BlizzGuzz

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2014, 03:28:50 AM »
Hello,

thanks for another great post with lots of useful info  ;-T :+1.

The bike runs better from approx. 2000 RPM. No doubt about that. Unfortunately it's more jerky in slow city traffic speed. And I think I know why...: one of the brass air bleeds was not fully screwed in when I did the TB sync.
So I will do the TB sync and TPS reset procedure again later today. And this time around I'll follow your wise advice  ;D ;-T   

Hi BlizzGuzz.

I don't think you really need to keep the motor running steady at 3,000 rpm if you find that difficult. You might end up with a very hot motor and angry neighbours! :-).

Just run it up to around 3,000, with the synchroniser attached and check the reading. Let it drop off to idle and adjust the screw in or out as necessary. (It must be the one that adjusts the length of the rod running through to the other side of the bike and to the right throttle body. Do not turn any other screw!).

Run it up to around 3,000 again and check your synchroniser again. If they are now better balanced, you turned the screw the right way! :-). If not, turn it the other way. Repeat until both sides show the same reading. It can all be done pretty quick. In fact, the quicker the better to avoid over-heating.
(Keep in mind, this should be done with both air bleeds screwed fully in. Those are the brass Allen head screws tucked away under the throttle bodies. They're tricky to get at, and it helps to have ball head Allen keys for that. You may find it easier to remove the plastic starter motor cover to get at the one on the left side. Screw them in carefully without using force!)

When you've got the throttle bodies nice and balanced at 3,000 rpm it means the amount of air flowing through both throttle bodies is the same. Then you connect Guzzidiag and do the TPS reset with the motor turned off. By doing that you've now synchronised the amount of fuel to both cylinders.

After that, restart the engine and and check your synchroniser at idle. Screw out the air bleed screw on the throttle body showing the highest vacuum reading until your synchroniser shows they are balanced at idle. Should be nice and smooth now.

That's it.
Don't forget to put the rubber caps back on the synchroniser connections.

PS: I think the standard TPS position on the Stelvio is 4.8, but it might well be a bit different depending on the bike. I don't think the actual reading is so important in itself. It's just necessary to do the reset after you synchronised the throttle bodies so that the ECU thinks both left and right sides are the same.


NOTE: Maybe it helps to think of it like this. When you synchronise the throttle bodies, you're mechanically changing the position of the butterfly valve in the right side throttle to balance the airflow. But the TPS (throttle POSITION sensor) is also located on the right side. It now "senses" that something has changed and starts "asking" the ECU for more/less fuel to the right hand side than before. By doing the TPS reset, you're telling that sensor that everything is cool and it should go back to requesting the same (standard) amount of fuel on each side.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Offline BlizzGuzz

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2014, 12:21:49 PM »
I think I'm convinced that this is the way to go  :).
Better result after second round TB sync and TPS resetting this afternoon.
Did it the right way this time around, obviously  8).
Smoother ride from idle to redline  ;D

Only concern now is the mileage...   ::)

Offline BlizzGuzz

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2014, 12:43:37 PM »
Come to think of it... I did the TPS reset also after the idle synch.
Right or wrong? Good or bad  ??? ? 

Offline Wayne Orwig

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2014, 12:49:01 PM »
Come to think of it... I did the TPS reset also after the idle synch.
Right or wrong? Good or bad  ??? ? 

Do it whenever the TPS/linkages are touched. The more often, the better.
I also give it a final reset just before unhooking the software.
Scientist have discovered that people will believe anything, if you first say "Scientist have discovered...."

Offline Xlratr

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Re: Stelvio 8V - Jerky Throttle Fuelling - Need Advice
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2014, 12:49:56 PM »
Sounds good! Synchronising will have no negative effect on fuel consumption so no need to worry about that.

Next step, switch off the Lambdas? :-). That might have a slight effect on fuel consumption, as it will run a little richer than standard in the lower half of the rev range. But you have the nicer smoother ride to compensate. :-)


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John

I ain't too young to realize, that I ain't too old to try ...

 

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