Author Topic: Wish me luck, I'm going in...  (Read 8904 times)

Offline Stevex

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Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« on: December 23, 2014, 04:22:39 PM »
...to the gearbox, that is.
Never done it before and not looking forward to it.
When I took the 'box off to remove the flywheel for lightening, the UJ boot was full of oil; the output shaft seal needs replacing.
While I'm at it I guess I should check the selector drum end float; is there anything else I should check for or replace while I'm in there?
The only things I can think of are the clutch hub seal and the return spring (?).
Any advice more than welcome, I think I'm going to need it.
Steve
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Offline Waterbottle

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2014, 04:26:23 PM »
Take Photos ( lots) and personal notes, you'll be surprised how much help it will be during reassembly.
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Offline Dharma Bum

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2014, 04:28:28 PM »
Go over to Greg Bender's site.  There's an excellent "how to" write up to follow.

Offline Stevex

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2014, 04:53:24 PM »
Go over to Greg Bender's site.  There's an excellent "how to" write up to follow.

Yep, read John Noble's write up on strip and rebuild, and Pete's drum end float guide. The print outs will be well worn by the time I finish.

About drum end float shims; Gutsibits stock 1.0 and 1.2mm shims, which seem horrendously large to me. I was expecting to use shims a few thou in thickness to remove any end float.
Steve
1980 Le Mans II
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2005 Aprilia Tuono
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A 'gnat's cock' is an accurate unit of measurement.

Morizzi

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2014, 05:07:51 PM »
There should be oil in the boot. There is no seal between the shaft and the worm gear on that model. Only came in about the LM IV. It may be the seal and no reason not to change it but don't fret if you find oil in there again as long as it isn't too much. Also there is no seal between the rear drive and the swingarm and oil can work its way up from there too. One good reason to use moly so you can identify the source.

The photo essays now on Greg's site are good but they did miss a few helpful hints. Its been a long time since I've read them so they may be updated.

Rod

Offline normzone

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2014, 05:40:08 PM »
I've been having plumbing challenges at home - when you say float I'm picturing something like in the back of a toilet tank that moderates water level. Probably a good thing that I wasn't on the design team.
Could be the timing chain or the kickstand spring

Vasco DG

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2014, 05:58:55 PM »
There should be oil in the boot. There is no seal between the shaft and the worm gear on that model. Only came in about the LM IV. It may be the seal and no reason not to change it but don't fret if you find oil in there again as long as it isn't too much. Also there is no seal between the rear drive and the swingarm and oil can work its way up from there too. One good reason to use moly so you can identify the source.

The photo essays now on Greg's site are good but they did miss a few helpful hints. Its been a long time since I've read them so they may be updated.

Rod

Rod, by 1980 they had long since added the o-ring that supposedly seals the shaft/worm. I think that was added about the time of the 850T. If you want to make it even drier you can add the tiny crush washer that sits on the end of the 5th gear splines to assist in squishing the o-ring uniformly. Really though as long as you aren't loosing significant oil from the gearbox between changes I wouldn't worry, the seepage will help keep the universal joint seals moist which is a good thing.

Yes, setting the drum end float carefully will make an appreciable difference but unless you are unhappy with the way the box is behaving I'd leave it alone. Having said that it is an almost 35 year old component so it would probably benefit from a freshen-up.

Pete

Offline Crusty

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2014, 06:00:49 PM »
I've been having plumbing challenges at home - when you say float I'm picturing something like in the back of a toilet tank that moderates water level. Probably a good thing that I wasn't on the design team.

That would explain why the BMW R1100S looks so much like a urinal. Especially in white.
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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2014, 06:42:50 PM »
Don't be intimidated, Pete did a good write up that I believe is posted somewhere. I saw him set up a gearbox when he was here in the US, to him it was a quick, simple job.  I was amazed how quickly he did it, and felt confident that with one of his write ups or another good source, I could do my own, but this was after watching him. I learn a lot better watching than reading.  Dive in

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2014, 06:47:42 PM »
That would explain why the BMW R1100S looks so much like a urinal. Especially in white.

True.. true..  ;D
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Offline Stevex

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2014, 07:00:00 AM »
Quote
Really though as long as you aren't loosing significant oil from the gearbox between changes I wouldn't worry, the seepage will help keep the universal joint seals moist which is a good thing.

Yes, setting the drum end float carefully will make an appreciable difference but unless you are unhappy with the way the box is behaving I'd leave it alone. Having said that it is an almost 35 year old component so it would probably benefit from a freshen-up.

Pete

Well, that's interesting Pete. After about 400 miles the largest V of the boot was full and the next one was about half full; would you say this was significant or not?
Actually it isn't the leak as such that worry's me, rather, reading that the oil will migrate and slowly overfill the bevel, resulting in further leaks (over the back wheel).
As for the gearbox, I actually find all changes up and down are good except for 2nd into 3rd, which 'ratchets' a bit, but I've a feeling a side benefit of the lightened flywheel will be an improvement here.
Steve
1980 Le Mans II
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2005 Aprilia Tuono
Chief mechanic to wife's 696 Monster

A 'gnat's cock' is an accurate unit of measurement.

Online Chuck in Indiana

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2014, 08:14:59 AM »
Well, I'm not Pete, but I'd say that was a lot..
Chuck in (Elwood) Indiana/sometimes SoCal

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2014, 09:46:59 AM »
Yup, worth addressing.

Morizzi

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2014, 05:19:20 PM »
Rod, by 1980 they had long since added the o-ring that supposedly seals the shaft/worm. I think that was added about the time of the 850T. If you want to make it even drier you can add the tiny crush washer that sits on the end of the 5th gear splines to assist in squishing the o-ring uniformly. Really though as long as you aren't loosing significant oil from the gearbox between changes I wouldn't worry, the seepage will help keep the universal joint seals moist which is a good thing.

Pete

I hate it when Mario rips me off. Luigi is his brother that skimps on the spline grease but Mario is the one that seems to skimp on O-rings.  :BEER:

Never found an O-ring there in any of the early 80's boxes I've worked on and despite it being introduced in the parts diagram for the LM 3 it certainly wasn't in either of those that I have here. Only LM IV's, Cali III's and on have I found it.

Not important though as it leaks very little. Even with the extra O-ring there is still no seal under the worm drive gear or between it and the support washer.

As for shims I just draw file down suitable bore washers now to suit. Not a fully rotational shaft and rest against an alloy case so they aren't the weakest link anyway.

Oil in the boot sounds excessive but where is it from? As I wrote previously whilst you are in there it is worthwhile to change the seal just in case. It used to be the same as the 35mm fork seal but most use a viton seal there just to be sure.

Merry Christmas.

Rod

Offline Stevex

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2014, 11:39:03 AM »
I've read about the viton seal replacement for the output shaft.
Gutsibits sell a gearbox rebuild kit which includes the input and output shaft seals, but they are both blue (as is my output shaft seal).
Looking at HMB-Guzzi, they sell a similar kit, but they differentiate between the two seals and as you can see, they are different colours.
I take it the brown one is the viton seal?

http://www.hmb-guzzi.de/shop/product_info.php?info=p103_dichtungssatz-5-gang-getriebe-grosse-modelle.html
Steve
1980 Le Mans II
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2005 Aprilia Tuono
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A 'gnat's cock' is an accurate unit of measurement.

kidneb

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2014, 05:08:32 PM »
I've read about the viton seal replacement for the output shaft.
Gutsibits sell a gearbox rebuild kit which includes the input and output shaft seals, but they are both blue (as is my output shaft seal).
Looking at HMB-Guzzi, they sell a similar kit, but they differentiate between the two seals and as you can see, they are different colours.
I take it the brown one is the viton seal?

http://www.hmb-guzzi.de/shop/product_info.php?info=p103_dichtungssatz-5-gang-getriebe-grosse-modelle.html


Vitons are more heat resistant than the ordinary seals and some people like to use them for the crank rear- and the input shaft seal because of the heat generated from the clutch. Never prescribed by Guzzi though,- AFAIK.

The pair of seals shown at HMB are blue for output and black for input - neither of them viton.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 07:29:43 PM by kidneb »

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2014, 08:11:16 PM »
Should barely get any mist, boot full is definitely a problem, it will fill drive box and leak
Never in my experience but search here, someone blew a hole in gearbox from all oil travelling to rear box (I find they get oil on back wheel first)

Viton seal, factory used brown viton for front of box and rear of engine from sometime late 80's or early 90's, completely fixed oil on clutch from overheating blue seals.


Rear box seal  is same size as front, use this brown seal on rear too, may not get as hot as clutch but I've seen enough blue ones leak to convince me of worth
I use viton in drive box and timing chest too, all available from bearing shop, they are generic sizes.

Cost a little bit more than blue ones but haven't seen any failures yet. cheap insurance


Online Old Jock

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2014, 03:39:58 AM »
Good grief I find myself agreeing with Jackson Racing  :o  ;D

Part number is the same for front and rear seals, it was Rolf Halvorsen who alerted me to fitting the Viton seal at the clutch. When I got seals from Gutsibits I got 2 black seals and exchanged one for the brown Viton type. If in doubt I'd just install 2 Viton seals.

Re Yak Fat, I have actually updated the write up a little but not posted it on the site yet, the changes are small. When I rebuilt the 1100 box for the Sporti I''m currently doing I also noticed a couple of helpful hints not included so I will insert these into the write up too.

The 3 omissions I noticed when doing the 1100 was

1) Knocking off the input hub can sometimes be tough
2) I never put in anything about fitting the Gearbox return spring and the O ring that sits in the end case to stop oil getting out via the shifter
3) The little spacer that sits over the output shaft nut (only applicable to Sporti's, Daytona and the like as they have the horrid 3 dog selectors)  I needed Pete & the board to put mr right with that  ::)

Rod................ ....if I've missed something else then PM me I'm all for inserting other peoples comments into the write up. What disappointed me a bit was how very few people came back to me with a comment on anything that could be done to improve the write up. Which is NOT a comment on how wonderful it is, but more a reflection of people who use these kind of resources but can't even take the time for 5 minutes to tell me how it could be made better.

This is why I have so much respect for VDG. The guy is truly selfless when it comes to this community spending time, effort and freely distributing expertise for absolutely nothing.

Stevex I'm in Glasgow, if you need any help I'm on your time zone. Have you got (or got access to) an impact wrench, some pullers for the bearings if required and the peg nut tool for the input?

John

Offline Stevex

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2014, 07:28:32 AM »
Thanks to everyone for the advice so far.
John, I've got the peg nut tool for the input, but that's it.
I'll go to my local garage to use their impact wrench when the time comes.
I'm hoping that I'll find all bearings OK, but sure I can source a puller if required...and many thanks for the offer of help.
I'll PM you when the time comes ;)
Steve
1980 Le Mans II
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2005 Aprilia Tuono
Chief mechanic to wife's 696 Monster

A 'gnat's cock' is an accurate unit of measurement.

Vasco DG

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2014, 04:56:48 PM »
Actually if you look at the parts list you'll find that at least for the later five speeds there is a size discrepancy in the two seals. From memory, (I'll look it up later.) one is 1/2 a mm bigger in the ID. In reality this is unimportant. The Viton seals supplied by the factory are also directional. This too is rather by the by and like Martin I've never had an issue with non directional seals.

Usually I just order two of the Viton ones along with all the other bits and bobs from the importer when I'm doing a five speed as long as they have them in stock. They aren't outrageously priced and for me it makes sense as the alternative is me making a trip into Canberra to the bearing factor which means a trip of an hour and a half and fuel which for a saving of a couple of bucks is hardly a worthwhile proposition!

If the importer doesn't have bits in stock I just order from Mario in Perth who always does. He just sends a non directional Viton seal for the front and a 35 mm flurocarbon, ('Blue') seal for the back. O-rings and stuff I have bags full of!

John? I kicked off the five speed box shimming thing but I'm more than happy for it to be your baby. Good point on getting others to contribute tips. If I think of anything I'll PM you.

Pete

Offline jacksonracingcomau

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2014, 07:40:17 PM »
Actually if you look at the parts list you'll find that at least for the later five speeds there is a size discrepancy in the two seals. From memory, (I'll look it up later.) one is 1/2 a mm bigger in the ID. In reality this is unimportant. The Viton seals supplied by the factory are also directional. This too is rather by the by and like Martin I've never had an issue with non directional seals.


Pete


Don't think I've seen directional box seal, rear main engine OE is directional, I use OE here. Of course I may only have bought non OE box one, dunno, next time I see an unopened box I'll check.
Size front and rear is 35 x 47 x 7
normal Guzzi original part number 90403547 gives this away
but viton is same size with 48 in part number, not a 48mm seal

You might be thinking old fork seals which were not quite same size, 34.7 I think for "35mm" forks part number 90403449

Part numbers sometimes rock the system !

One more tip
Hex nut for rear output shaft is same thread as silly peg nut, you can use rear nut on front, makes tightening and locking it a doddle, just need 27mm deep socket


14219310
Good grief I find myself agreeing with Jackson Racing  :o  ;D

John

Not sure if I should laugh or cry, have you reason to disagree with me ?

Online Old Jock

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2014, 04:01:02 AM »
Not at all Jackson Racing, it was a bit tongue in cheek I take my hat off to anybody with who has your level of experience and freely contributes.

BUT sometimes you can be scary (absolutely no insult implied) as you can be a little Ahem............for thright? I guess that level of confidence comes with living with these machines that long and everything about them seems utterly obvious.

I wish you well and thank you for being here I really do.

To everybody who has added anything so far, thanks I'll get to adding this stuff in and update it all in a couple of weeks (especially Rod for that very detailed post.......cheers)

Pete I have no desire to replace your efforts in any area (not that I could if even if I wanted too). In the write up I explicitly stated that the reader gets a hold of your article and uses it as a shimming guide.

I did the tear down thing purely by accident on the suggestion by a very knowledgeable mate, it grew a little from that. It was done only to let people see that it's possible and not as complex as a lot might imagine. If you want to use it as guide then that was the intention (and to remove the fear factor). If you think its pants fair enough you don't have to use it.

I suppose they could be incorporated into one, 2 part document, that may be a way to go, but as they are both hosted on the same site it seems a bit pointless.

Tell me what you want and I'll try my best comply, I make no claims to be fit to clean Pete's boots when it comes to this sort of stuff nor would I want to be

Offline Stevex

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2014, 11:12:10 AM »
I've ordered two Viton double lip seals (35x47x7).
Just need to order a seal and gasket set and wait for it to arrive before I set to it; the plan is to do the strip / rebuild in one go.

Quote
No need to bash the crap out of the shouldered nut but if it is already too damaged to use they are still available but the position can be changed by a thin shim.
Looking at the nut (still fitted), why would there be a need to change the position of it (with a shim)? Even if the collar at the top is damaged while prising it out of the spline, can it not be refitted and another part of the collar pushed into a different spline?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 11:12:59 AM by Stevex »
Steve
1980 Le Mans II
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2005 Aprilia Tuono
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A 'gnat's cock' is an accurate unit of measurement.

Online Old Jock

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2014, 01:03:40 PM »
I'm not sure what you're referring to here Steve, when you say spline are you referring to the lock washer tab where it's bent over into one of the gaps in the peg nut on the Clutchshaft?

The problem is that the washer tabs are spaced in such a manner that only one tab will be available to be knocked into one gap at a particular location. None of the other gaps in the peg nut will line up with the lockwasher tabs, so you only get one location to lock it.

If you shimmed it out then the lockwasher tab would be aligned to a different gap in the nut.

I'm struggling to explain it well

kidneb

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Online Wayne Orwig

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2014, 01:46:54 PM »
Hex nut for rear output shaft is same thread as silly peg nut, you can use rear nut on front, makes tightening and locking it a doddle, just need 27mm deep socket


I haven't used the goofy peg nut on any rebuilds for years once I found this out.
I usually grind off most of the 'tab' portion of the nut. Not sure why. I doubt there is anything there it could touch.
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Offline Stevex

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2014, 04:30:19 PM »
I'm not sure what you're referring to here Steve, when you say spline are you referring to the lock washer tab where it's bent over into one of the gaps in the peg nut on the Clutchshaft?

The problem is that the washer tabs are spaced in such a manner that only one tab will be available to be knocked into one gap at a particular location. None of the other gaps in the peg nut will line up with the lockwasher tabs, so you only get one location to lock it.

If you shimmed it out then the lockwasher tab would be aligned to a different gap in the nut.

I'm struggling to explain it well

John, you've said enough to make me realize my mistake; I was talking about refitting the nut to it's original position, not behind the clutch hub, sorry.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 07:04:22 PM by Stevex »
Steve
1980 Le Mans II
2009 Honda CB1300S
2005 Aprilia Tuono
Chief mechanic to wife's 696 Monster

A 'gnat's cock' is an accurate unit of measurement.

Morizzi

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2014, 05:02:24 PM »
I haven't used the goofy peg nut on any rebuilds for years once I found this out.
I usually grind off most of the 'tab' portion of the nut. Not sure why. I doubt there is anything there it could touch.


I don't understand the problem so many have with the peg nut. Once you've made the tool from an old socket there is no issue. At least you can still use the lock tab for peace of mind. Trick is to bend all the tabs up as much as you can so the 'one' is easy to lift. The peg nut is shaped to allow this.

Later models had a hex nut. I've got one here but never used it. I like the lock tab, easy and effective.

Funny how many feel the need to put a hose clamp on the filter or fit a sump spacer for more oil or more space (you pick the model and type of paranoia.) yet don't use a perfectly good secure system.  ::)

Rod

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2014, 11:21:46 PM »
Stand the tranny on the input end when dis assembling and re assembling.  Not on its side.  My 2 cents.  Don't be scared, part will not go flying across the room.  Once you start into it, you wonder what all the fuss is about.  I was surprised at how easy a rebuild is.  I have done it a couple of times.  Pete's write up was a big help.  Replace all the you can while you are in there.  If you have any experience working on mechanical things, it will be obvious what metal parts are worn or damaged. 

Offline Stevex

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Re: Wish me luck, I'm going in...
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2015, 07:35:22 AM »
Next question for those with the knowledge; I've read that re profiling the detent plunger can have beneficial effects on the gear change.
Can anyone indicate what the 'new' profile should look like? Thanks.

Added picture...


« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 09:11:48 AM by Stevex »
Steve
1980 Le Mans II
2009 Honda CB1300S
2005 Aprilia Tuono
Chief mechanic to wife's 696 Monster

A 'gnat's cock' is an accurate unit of measurement.

 

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