Author Topic: V7 Electrical Gremlins  (Read 721 times)

Offline Shiftonthefly

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V7 Electrical Gremlins
« on: December 12, 2018, 08:11:40 PM »
Hey guys. I'm experiencing some strange behavior out of my 2016 V7 Stornello.

Just to give a bit of background I changed some things about the bike that I didn't care for. I went with drag bars and ditched the tail light/rear subframe. Also the stock turn signals in favor of smaller metal LED bullets. I used a Guzzi-tech headlight/gauge drop bracket as well. Because I changed the bars, the stock clutch lever would not work. I swapped in an adjustable eBay unit and it works mechanically. The bike itself is not cut or permanently modified. I adapted the new accessories to the existing harness. No cutting or splicing. All connections are used in the factory harness then shrink sleeve covered.

I did most of this work months ago. The battery has since died beyond being able to be ressurected by a trickle charger. Now that I've started fiddling w the bike again I have discovered an odd problem.  It should be noted I have fully functioning turn signals, headlights, brake lights, horn and all the warning lights come one and cycle as they should. The gauges even do the sweep when I turn the key on.

1st and foremost the bike no longer cranks when I charge up the battery (it doesn't hold long) or even when I have the charger directly connected.

2nd and most strange, the tach now jumps past 5k RPM when I turn the key on. And pushing in the clutch switch makes it drop down to the bottom.  I have yet to re-incorporate this switch into the new handle as I haven't found a way to use the stock switch in the new handle. I refuse to cut up the bike so that's still pending. I am confused as to why the tach is jumping up and why that switch affects it.

Any suggestions would be very appreciated.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 08:30:04 PM by Shiftonthefly »

Online Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2018, 09:51:11 PM »
Here we go, the V7s are starting to fail
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif

Here's a better drawing
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/wiring_diagram_v7-iii-e4-stone.pdf

Theory
This might be causing the tach problem,
The tach goes up scale as it's supposed to do during the light show then the battery disconnects, tach will stay put because its a stepper motor. Pressing the clutch switch somehow connects it again so it drives back to zero)

You say the bike is not cranking when you press start, lets fix that first and it may help item 2
Do you get a quiet click from relay (6)

Step A
You might just have bad battery connections, the first thing to do is remove the leads and scrape the terminals to expose bright metal then swipe them with some Vaseline, this will keep the connection good for years. Check the connection where the Negative terminal connects to the chassis as well.

Step B
Measure the Voltage at fuse C to chassis it should read the same as battery Volts but what does it read when you press Start?


Other
Does the battery stay charged if you remove it from the bike and charge it with the trickle charger?
       Leaving it in the bike but removing the ground connection will suffice.
Are you measuring the Voltage with a multimeter, what does it read under charge, again a couple of hours after the charger is disconnected?
I'm a bit surprised that changing to LEDs without load resistors didn't cause alarms on the dash
Your battery shouldn't be failing yet, what's the mileage on the bike
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 03:59:00 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2018, 10:51:35 PM »
Just a possibility re: no crank.
OP is trying to start the bike in gear, clutch pulled in but ecu doesn't know because clutch switch not physically connected to clutch lever so no cranking.

Glenn

Offline Bisbonian

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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2018, 10:53:10 PM »
Are you still using the dud battery?

Offline voncrump

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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2018, 12:04:12 AM »
Kiwi Roy, I think you need to find a V711 wiring diagram.
There will be a lot more spaghetti.
It is a bit harsh to judge this as a V7 wiring problem.
The owner has dabbled into it in a way that adds so many potential problems.
In fact the V7s seem to have had very little trouble in this or any department.
Someone has to stickup for these excellent bikes.
Merry Xmas.
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1988  Lario ( long gone )
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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2018, 12:09:54 AM »
Instead of " here we go, the V7's are starting to fail " how about " modified V7 has teething problems "

Glenn

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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2018, 03:58:03 AM »
Kiwi Roy, I think you need to find a V711 wiring diagram.
There will be a lot more spaghetti.
It is a bit harsh to judge this as a V7 wiring problem.
The owner has dabbled into it in a way that adds so many potential problems.
In fact the V7s seem to have had very little trouble in this or any department.
Someone has to stickup for these excellent bikes.
Merry Xmas.
Instead of " here we go, the V7's are starting to fail " how about " modified V7 has teething problems "

Glenn
Glenn, you are right of course it may be the lack of clutch switch, that will come out in the next few days.

Voncrump, Until I find a V7II schematic I can read I will have to be content with Carl's excellent earlier drawing which I'm sure applies to thousands of bikes.
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2013_V7_Series.gif
If you look at the starter circuit power goes from the battery to key switch (14) to fuse C (22) to relay (6) then to a coil at the starter (19), I do know that is not the whole picture and the solenoid will pull at least 30 Amps if it's given a chance.

Perhaps I did choose the wrong words, I can't go back and erase them now or everyone will wonder what you are on about LOL
Nobody loves Guzzis more than I do, the V7 is a lovely little bike, Startus Interruptus can be easily cured, I'm sure MPH have a kit all ready for it.

If nothing else I stirred up some good ideas
Merry Christmas all, don't forget to clean and grease your battery terminals.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 04:58:57 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Offline kingoffleece

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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2018, 04:47:08 AM »
"'Here we go................. ."?  Come on, man, really?
The owner switched up several things.  He needs to trace his work and locate the issue(s).
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Offline Shiftonthefly

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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2018, 06:16:47 AM »
"'Here we go................. ."?  Come on, man, really?
The owner switched up several things.  He needs to trace his work and locate the issue(s).

Haha. Yep. That pretty much sums it up. I don't blame the bike at all. I still love this thing. Any issues it's having are my fault for changing things around. Battery connections are clean and tight. If it makes any difference this bike is stored inside and it's got about 2800 miles on it. This is the original battery.

Kiwi I'm assuming your looking for a voltage drop to see if the starter is in fact being engaged. I don't have the voltage numbers off hand but I do not think this is the case. I think the problem is further "backwards". I don't hear the starter relay click. I will get those numbers tonight and post them. Yes I'm still using the battery. I will change that out obviously. For now I was more concerned with the odd behavior. If you gents feel it adds to the problems of diagnosis, I can change it out sooner. To date I have it hooked to my big auto charger while Ive been chasing this issue. One the maintain setting. Not the starting setting.

The confusion and worry comes from the irratic tach. I don't get how that switch could possibly cause this or affect this behavior. When I get a little time today I'll trace that wiring diagram. Thanks for posting that.

I did make sure I was in neutral. A few times. That's what I initially had thought as well since there is no click or perceived voltage drop like the headlight dimming while cranking.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 06:23:04 AM by Shiftonthefly »

Offline kingoffleece

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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2018, 10:14:05 AM »
You're in Vegas.  That heat kills batteries.  It's unknown how the current battery was treated.  It's a variable that must be eliminated with a known good one.
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Online Kiwi_Roy

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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2018, 10:31:07 AM »
Haha. Yep. That pretty much sums it up. I don't blame the bike at all. I still love this thing. Any issues it's having are my fault for changing things around. Battery connections are clean and tight. If it makes any difference this bike is stored inside and it's got about 2800 miles on it. This is the original battery.
I asked about the mileage to get a feel for how many charge/discharge cycles it had done, not very many, are you measuring the Voltage with a meter? I thought you might have a huge parasitic load to run it flat so quick

Kiwi I'm assuming your looking for a voltage drop to see if the starter is in fact being engaged. I don't have the voltage numbers off hand but I do not think this is the case. I think the problem is further "backwards". I don't hear the starter relay click.

If you don't hear the relay it's more likely to be lack of an input then Clutch Switch or perhaps the ECU is saying sorry you don't have enough Voltage, that's one of the checks the ECU makes

I will get those numbers tonight and post them. Yes I'm still using the battery. I will change that out obviously. For now I was more concerned with the odd behavior. If you gents feel it adds to the problems of diagnosis, I can change it out sooner. To date I have it hooked to my big auto charger while Ive been chasing this issue. One the maintain setting. Not the starting setting.

The confusion and worry comes from the irratic tach. I don't get how that switch could possibly cause this or affect this behavior. When I get a little time today I'll trace that wiring diagram. Thanks for posting that.

The tach drives up scale to the rev limit setting as the dash runs through it's light show, I thought it might be stopping then due to lack of Voltage (its a stepper motor, it will stop where it is if the ECU shuts down) then I thought pushing the clutch switch might somehow fire it up again so it motors back down.
Put the clutch switch back on the bar somehow so you can press it as you press the start button


I did make sure I was in neutral. A few times. That's what I initially had thought as well since there is no click or perceived voltage drop like the headlight dimming while cranking.
But it's not cranking is it? At least that's what I thought you said, Are you saying the Headlight is On.

I don't know whether you have a Neutral and a Sidestand light on those, if so verify one is on the other Off and the battery is at least 12-1/2 Volts and the logic should be ready for starting, if it wont crank close the clutch switch and try again.

I think you have a Voltage readout on the dash, what is that telling you?
I don't think you should worry about the tach until you get it cranking, fix that and the tach might take care of itself

You can give the battery and starter a good workout by taking a wire from the spade connector on the starter solenoid and touching it on battery+ (make sure the bike is in Neutral) there will be quite a spark as you touch it on (40 Amps) It will test the batteries ability to crank.

I always rabbit on about battery connections, left ungreased lead Oxide can completely break the connection even when tight.
Vaseline prevents this by excluding Oxygen

Good Luck
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 10:57:46 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2018, 04:03:42 PM »
Here's a better drawing of the V7 III  Item 6 is the Start Relay
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/wiring_diagram_v7-iii-e4-stone.pdf
Easier to read at least, print it on 11 x 17

Question
Item 51, what is that all about?
Looks like some advanced diagnostic connector or Code-reader socket.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 04:17:42 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2018, 04:16:42 PM »
get the battery load tested or replaced before anything else.
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Offline JoeW

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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2018, 05:20:14 PM »
Replace the battery! If it doesn't hold a charge, it's bad. Just because the lights work, does not mean the battery is good. All of your lights together draw no more than 10 amps. The starter needs at least 125 amps to even think about cranking.
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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2018, 06:40:55 PM »
Replace the battery! If it doesn't hold a charge, it's bad. Just because the lights work, does not mean the battery is good. All of your lights together draw no more than 10 amps. The starter needs at least 125 amps to even think about cranking.

It will think about starting and make a loud clunk as the gear engages with less than 30 Amps, true, it wont turn.

I mentioned how to test the starter and battery in post No 10
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 06:45:40 PM by Kiwi_Roy »
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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2018, 12:15:14 PM »
Queer electrons blow fuses
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Offline organfixsing

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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2018, 12:24:45 AM »
Here is a V7ii wiring diagram in two forms:- #1 is in .PDF format ( but it is not coloured properly.)
                                                                #2 is in .TCW format (and is fully coloured ) and is the format for TurboCad.
I haven't been able to successfully change the TurboCad format to other formats and still retain the wire colours.
This might help

Cheers

Brian :grin:
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Offline fossil

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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2018, 01:00:58 AM »
Here is a V7ii wiring diagram in two forms:- #1 is in .PDF format ( but it is not coloured properly.)
                                                                #2 is in .TCW format (and is fully coloured ) and is the format for TurboCad.
I haven't been able to successfully change the TurboCad format to other formats and still retain the wire colours.
This might help

Cheers

Brian :grin:

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Offline Muzz

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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2018, 03:03:02 AM »
This MAY apply only to the gauges going erratic.

On the Breva (I know, not a V7ll) there are two earth straps, one going to a bolt on the upper left of the bell housing, the other on the right.  When doing the many gearbox swaps I undertook, on one of them I failed to attach the right hand one.  The gauges went ballistic.  When I found this omission, I reattached it and all settled down.

The system obviously needs the two earths connected.  If the V7ll is similar you may have a similar earth problem seeing you have been playing with things in that area.
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Offline pat80flh

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Re: V7 Electrical Gremlins
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2018, 05:13:09 AM »
A weak battery will cause all kinds of weird stuff, I assume the tach is electrical/computer driven.  Don't even try to diagnose anything until there is a fresh,fully charged battery in the system.
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