Thud Pilots

[drbone641]

There’s a movie on Prime Video, Thud Pilots, by an old F105 Pilot Viz Vizcara. Some good bar stories get told and excellent footage.      Good collection of guys in interviews

[oldbike54]

 Any pilot who survived flying Thuds is either lucky , or good , or both .

 Dusty

[Two Checks]

Thuds were used in missions they were not designed to do. That's why so many were lost.

[erich]

Thanks for hinting at the F105. The video apparently is not offered by Amazon here, I spontaneously ordered Jack Broughton's book "Thud Ridge" instead.

[Aaron D.]

Thud Ridge is excellent. Ed Rasmus also wrote about a tour in 105s, then F4s

[Gliderjohn]

Another  good book is "The Doom Pussy" by Elaine Shepard.
GliderJohn

[oldbike54]

Thuds were used in missions they were not designed to do. That's why so many were lost.

 You mean like actually fly ?

 The F 105 was fast , but the early ones had jet engines that were poorly designed , the aircraft was too large , and while it eventually was kinda sorted out , it was an example of *bigger is not always better* .

 Dusty

[Sasquatch Jim]

The Doom Pussy is a good book, I read it  way back when.  Danang Officers' Open Mess.

[Dilliw]

I watched it a few months ago.  When they got to the weasels it got real interesting. 

Well worth watching. 

[Rough Edge racing]

  I never gave much thought to how any US aircraft were lost in Vietnam...Like a lot...a few thousand planes and around 5000 helicopters...Then I saw the documentry on the Thuds a few months back...Danger in the jungle and danger in the air...

[Rick in WNY]

Made time to watch this over the weekend.

Damn.... just damn....

The plane was an amazing piece of machinery, the coverage of men who took care of them and loaned them to the pilots was very well done. All too often, all we hear about are the pilots, not the literal army of people who kept the planes flight-ready.

It also covered some info in a lot more detail than I had heard about. Like what an absolute ba$%@$! McNamara was. He was the one who set the ridiculous policies that cost so many of the pilots, Thuds and others, their lives in the air over Vietnam. What a miserable human being...

And yet, in spite of McNamara, the pilots managed to do their jobs. I was impressed with the guts those men had. In the end, it was all for naught, yet those men went, flew, fought, and died, because that's what you did if you were a fighter pilot.

All told, it was well worth watching, thanks for sharing it here.

Rick

[larrys]

You mean like actually fly ?

 The F 105 was fast , but the early ones had jet engines that were poorly designed , the aircraft was too large , and while it eventually was kinda sorted out , it was an example of *bigger is not always better* . Dusty

The 105 wasn't really good at anything. I learned it's weapon systems in AF tech school, but never worked on one at an airbase.
Larry

[rocker59]

It was my impression that they types of targets they were flown against was a big contributor to losses.  They were carrying 4,000-5,000 lbs of bombs and a bunch of extra fuel for missions on heavily defended bridges, air fields, AAA sites, etc.   

The D-model was sorted, and carried the mail from 1961-1970.  Sure, it was "the only plane pulled from service due to losses", but the Air Force put the F-105 on some well defended, super-dangerous targets.  It could've been pulled any time and the F-4 used to pick up the slack, but the F-105 continued on as one of the primary attack aircraft for most of the war.

Yeah, I'd love to ride in a plane that can go super-sonic at sea level, and mach-2 at altitude.  Had to be a thrill !!!

Maybe Kirby1923 can chime in.  He was there.   

[Rick in WNY]

It was my impression that they types of targets they were flown against was a big contributor to losses.  They were carrying 4,000-5,000 lbs of bombs and a bunch of extra fuel for missions on heavily defended bridges, air fields, AAA sites, etc.   

Well, that documentary covered the pilots' memories of when they saw the Migs sitting on runways... and McNamara wouldn't let them drop a single bomb on the airfields. They saw the SAMs being shipped in... and were told the port was off-limits. A lot of things could have been done differently... and yes, because of it's speed, the Thud was assigned to hit the best defended targets because they were the only plane that had half a chance of getting in and getting out.

[rocker59]

Well, that documentary covered the pilots' memories of when they saw the Migs sitting on runways... and McNamara wouldn't let them drop a single bomb on the airfields. They saw the SAMs being shipped in... and were told the port was off-limits. A lot of things could have been done differently... and yes, because of it's speed, the Thud was assigned to hit the best defended targets because they were the only plane that had half a chance of getting in and getting out.

Afraid of hitting "innocent" Soviet "advisors", I guess.  LOL.  I never got McNamara as Secretary of Defense. 

[Aaron D.]

McNamara got it due to his WW2 experience. He got a lot of credit for statistical analysis during the bombing campaign on Japan. It's been covered, can make for depressing reading.

[kirby1923]

It was my impression that they types of targets they were flown against was a big contributor to losses.  They were carrying 4,000-5,000 lbs of bombs and a bunch of extra fuel for missions on heavily defended bridges, air fields, AAA sites, etc.   

The D-model was sorted, and carried the mail from 1961-1970.  Sure, it was "the only plane pulled from service due to losses", but the Air Force put the F-105 on some well defended, super-dangerous targets.  It could've been pulled any time and the F-4 used to pick up the slack, but the F-105 continued on as one of the primary attack aircraft for most of the war.

Yeah, I'd love to ride in a plane that can go super-sonic at sea level, and mach-2 at altitude.  Had to be a thrill !!!

Maybe Kirby1923 can chime in.  He was there.

Yes, I'd rather not get into this in too much detail 'cause this is a motor bike forum and not many folks would be interested and its fading away from yours truly.

The Phantom could do anything the 105 could do and in most cases better. It was a bit faster in speed and climb. It proved itself by taking over most the 105 missions without any big obstacles.

Any aircraft in VN that flew missions below 3000' agl was in more danger of being shot down as every person with a gun would shoot at you. The big threat low down wasn't SA2s but the ZU 23mm AA guns that were devastating.

We had standing orders to not fly below 3000' and less that 450 kt unless delivering ordnance. We didn't ever fly super sonic down low in VN, and the weapons dropped had speed limitations for delivery anyway.

I flew a lot for MIGCAP at altitude and the SA2s were not hard to defeat if you could see them coming at you. That is where the fast speeds were handy (required). 

We had  "rules of engagement" policies that were very strict and were often modified for certain targets. That is why we couldn't strike some targets that would have seemed a proper thing to do.

McNamara was not completely to blame for some of these rules and I suspect that many of his actions were modified by politics and from very high up on the totem.

However in the States at China Lake Naval weapons center near Edwards I have flown down the Paniment valley at 1.2 mach at 10 feet!

And your right Rocker..its a thrill! Hit a bird at that speed and it could ruin your day real quick.

FWIW

:-)

[Tom H]

At 10'... Wow!

Thanks for the post Kirby!

Tom

[Rick in WNY]

Kirby, thanks for the reply, I for one found it interesting, but that's me... and I never claimed to be normal.

Mach 1.2 at 10 feet... yeah, not a lot of wiggle room there if anything goes wrong, but that had to be a rush!

But mostly, since you're one who at one point wrote the check to the US government for "any amount up to and including my life," thank you for your service. 

And that goes to all the other people who have served, in any capacity. Thank you all.

[Two Checks]

Quote from: oldbike54 on June 17, 2019, 08:16:21 AM

You mean like actually fly ?

 The F 105 was fast , but the early ones had jet engines that were poorly designed , the aircraft was too large , and while it eventually was kinda sorted out , it was an example of *bigger is not always better* .

 Dusty

The engine that it was designed for wasn't ready so the early ones Got the lesser engine.

Thuds were designed to go in fast and low, lob their nuclear bomb and get out of Dodge fast.

[rocker59]

I like this story:


"On 31 May 1968, a dedication ceremony took place at the United States Air Force Academy to honor graduates who had served in Vietnam...  To conclude the ceremony, a flight of four F-105s from McConnell AFB were to fly over in formation at 1,000 feet above the ground and then fly over singly at 250 feet. The formation portion happened as planned. But the flight leader, Lt Col James "Black Matt" Matthews, came back for the single-file pass and exceeded the speed of sound at less than 100 feet. The ensuing sonic boom broke hundreds of windows and fifteen people sustained cuts."

[oldbike54]

 Fellas , I've followed Kirby at what felt like Mach 1 at ground level 

 Dusty