MGX-21 wont start, version 2.0

[fallguy]

Completely different that my first problem with my new MGX-21, where it died on me when riding it, and did not have any lights whatsoever. Turned out to be very loose grounding wire. And thanks again for all that help in that situation from forum members here.

Since then I have been riding about non stop. Whenever not raining. I can do cold, or wet. Dont really care for both at the same time. I have just over 1400 miles on it now after finally getting it going in Sept. It has ran literally with no problems since. The only semi problem it had was when it was very cold (low 30's) it would start right up and die a few seconds later. Then restart right back up, and keep running. When warm it started and stayed on no problem.

I got home this morning at 6am from work, and it was about 30 again this morning. Rode just fine home. Parked and went to bed. Got up later in the day, tried to start it and got a single click. All lights turned on, gauges worked, everything looked normal. It was in neutral, kickstand was up, clutch pulled in, but when pressing the start button it just made an audible single click. Seems obvious that it is electrical (again!!!) and I plan to trouble shoot tomorrow. Battery isnt dead, but I can make sure. Starter, other connection maybe? Something is just not letting it turn over. Probably something simple, just trying to narrow down a few ideas before I go chasing ghosts again. I apologize if this seems simple, I did do a search. Both here and on the google machine. Most seem to think starter, but its still pretty new. The bike is under warranty, but the shop is 2 hours away. I'd rather do it myself.

Any ideas to get me pointed in the right direction would be appreciated. My initial plan it just to check all connections, make sure they're clean and tight. Go from there.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Carl Allison posted some wonderfull drawings on this Old Tractor, here's one that shows the power for a 1400
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2014_California_Entire.gif
And the Legend
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2014_California_Legend.gif  , there are half a dozen others as well.
You may be a long time rider in which case you will know to remove the Negative cable first and reconnect it last otherwise forgive me.
When you clean the battery terminals be sure scrape the lead so its shiny to remove any Lead Oxide then apply some Vaseline.
Figure out where the main battery grounds to the gearbox and treat that to a clean and grease as well, Luigi is quite sloppy at grounding the battery.
I think for a start I would measure the Voltage on the large wire that goes to the starter solenoid against the chassis (clamp the meter Black probe under a bolt on the engine).
No doubt it will measure 12.5 - 13 Volts but what does the Voltage read when you press Start?
You can also measure the Voltage on the solenoid trigger wire, I think its Violet, should go from zero to +8 or 9 when the start relay closes, needs to be tight se Note below.
If it disappears then take your meter Red probe and touch it to the battery Negative terminal and try again, what does it read?
See the red wire that goes to relay (29) that should be livened up by the relay (36) when you turn the key On
You should be able to unplug the relay (29) and put your meter probe in the socket to check that out.
Note: The way they show the starter motor on this drawing is nonsense, there are two coils and they will draw about 50 Amps for a split second when you press Start, this current passes through the Start relay contacts, the current through the start button and relay coils is < 100 milliamps.

[fallguy]

This is where the clicking is coming from. Removing the cover shows three relays. I can hear it, and when putting my finger on the relays, I can feel it click when hitting the starter button.

Video of the clicking sound; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53ah2G3poRw&feature=youtu.be

So Im assuming I need a new relay. I'll look around for them. I dont have any way to check it.. need a voltmeter I know... I rode to work, and then back fine. Luckily it did this at home, and not out.

[John A]

Maybe you can isolate by switching positions, if they are the same

[Bulldog9]

NFN, but did you re-check the connections at the starter?

[Kiwi_Roy]

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2014_California_Entire.gif I assume all 1400s have the same basic wiring.
You seem to have 6 relays 3 under each cover in your picture, some bikes might have a Fog Light relay as well
3 will be (3) (4) & (5) the Light relays they should be easy to identify, probably under the RH cover in your picture.
The other 3 will be (28) Start, (36) Main injection & (35) Secondary Injection I have no idea in which order they are.
5 of the relays might well be the same in which case you could rob one from the headlight wiring to get mobile.
The Main injection is a special relay with a diode in the coil circuit that one must remain in its present location as the "Safety Diode" protects the ECU if the battery is put in backwards. Tell me someone, does this relay have a different base so it can't be switched. I can't imagine why Luigi did that, in the past the Safety Diode was part of the wiring and all relays were identical, that makes much more sense to me.
According to the schematic when you turn the key ON the Main Injection relay (36) closes taking 12V from fuse 2 at (30) and feeding it to the Start relay (30) contact, that's probably as simple as Guzzi have ever done it.
I'm fairly sure this part of the logic is working you didn't mention a fault in the light show.
You should be able to figure out which relay is the Start relay, the 78 contact goes to the starter solenoid coil, it will measure like a dead short to chassis, 30 and 86 are joined together if you turn the key On these two terminals should measure +12 to chassis.
NOTE: Some bikes have an Anti Theft Device (23), that interrupts the signal to the Main Injection Relay, I assume you have to have a fob in your pocket, does that have a battery that might be flat? Can someone elaborate on that?
You can also measure the relay coils for continuity they will be in the 100 - 120 Ohm range.
To measure the special relay you will need diode test on your multimeter I think it will read about 0.6 in one direction only, the other way will be open circuit.
Note: What I have identified in this post doesn't take into account any interlocks like Low Voltage, Neutral or Stand switch, that will follow once we have identified the various relays and checked they are working correctly.

[bikeridertim]

 I personally would start with the battery,  have it load tested. I  haven't had any trouble with my "new" 2017 MGX until Sunday after about 130 miles I stopped for gas and went to leave and had click, click.  Bike is only 10 months old and 6300 miles. In reality the bike and battery are 3-4 years old. 

Tim 

[bad Chad]

I personally would start with the battery,  have it load tested. I  haven't had any trouble with my "new" 2017 MGX until Sunday after about 130 miles I stopped for gas and went to leave and had click, click.  Bike is only 10 months old and 6300 miles. In reality the bike and battery are 3-4 years old. 

Tim

Agreed.  Look real hard at the battery.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I personally would start with the battery,  have it load tested. I  haven't had any trouble with my "new" 2017 MGX until Sunday after about 130 miles I stopped for gas and went to leave and had click, click.  Bike is only 10 months old and 6300 miles. In reality the bike and battery are 3-4 years old. 

Tim

Tim, you might well be correct in which case a couple of hours on a battery tender should see it right although he had ridden it home earlier in the day it should be charged.
The bike has a built in battery tester, the starter, measure the Voltage while cranking. I look upon this as an opportunity to learn how the electrical system works.
Roy

[Kiwi_Roy]

I looked back at some of  Fallguy's earlier posts, the start trigger terminal is just begging to have a screwdriver short between the large positive terminal.
That will make it crank if the battery has any life at all. JUST MAKE SURE ITS IN NEUTRAL FIRST - PULL THE CLUTCH AS WELL
https://ibb.co/tH2QJ7T

[fallguy]

Thanks for the replies. I put the battery on charger since I got home this morning about 7 hours ago, just tried it again and its the same thing. I should have been more clear, it "clicks" when pushing the starter button, but only once. Those three clicks in the video is me pushing the starter three separate times. When I push it and hold it in, it only clicks once. So not like a car with a low battery and just keeps clicking when trying to turn it over. I have another battery that I bought when the first problem started, I am charging it now. Although it was almost fully charged already. I will try that when its 100% just to double check. It also ran fine the few days prior to this. I rode it to work the night before, rode it home, and tried to start it up about 8 hours later and the click happened.

The ground wire is still very firmly attached. I dont see any abnormal warning lights when turning the key over. There are two relay boxes, I can feel it from the left box. I can isolate the right relay on the left box. When putting my finger on all each relay one at a time, I can tell a big difference in the feel of the click from the right relay. It is much stronger from the right relay. I googled the relay number, only finding ebay for now, no amazon or similar places. Its not expensive, about $15, but over $20 for shipping because its from the EU. Relay says Fiat/Alfa on it. I have a retailer about 5 miles from me, I may go down and see if they have one. Perhaps their cars use the same one? I am hoping its just that one relay.

Kiwi, take a screw driver and touch both that clip and the pos connector at the same time and see if it starts? I dont think I can, that pic is with the starter out, that clip is on the back end and when the starter is in place I cannot reach the back connector. I have taken each relay out one at a time, from left to right. It still clicks until I take the right one out. I did the same thing from right to left, once that far right one comes out, even with the other two in, it will not click. Just does nothing.

[TN Mark]

Try swapping the relay on the right that clicks once with the relay in the center to see if anything changes when you press the starter button.

[Zoom Zoom]

Have you verified the ground you found lose before is still tight? Did you by chance look at the dash to get a battery voltage reading? (Engine off.)

I don't recall from your last event: Did you replace the battery? Have you had it load tested?

The two fused located near the battery, one a 30 amp the other a 40 amp. The 40 is the feed from the voltage regulator. You might try putting an ohm meter on the pins of the fuse and thumping it with your finger. If it is going open you will see it. (It's unlikely but easy and free.)

John Henry

[Kiwi_Roy]

The picture shows the solenoid trigger wire, that comes directly from the start relay. I wonder if its possibly dropped off.
Please test the start relay socket /30 for Voltage when the key is on do it with a 12 Volt lamp to chassis if you don't have a meter. The 30 contact will be one of the large ones usually at one end
The diagram shows the start relay powered up directly by the main injection relay which is turned on by the key (unless you have the anti theft module)

[fallguy]

The bike was serviced at a Guzzi dealership for a recall. I was assured they checked everything. Never the less, I did try my other battery and it does the same thing. I made sure it was charged up before I tried it.

The ground wire is still securely attached, does not move at all. I did swap all the relays and tried various setups, the only one that will do anything is with the original right one in the same spot. I dont have a meter, not sure what else to try. I can try opening up the other relay box, and going on at a time swapping.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I will text you a sketch, it might help.
In the meantime can you confirm if the fuel pump runs for a couple of seconds every time you cycle the key Switch (17) from Off to On (Kill switch needs to be On for this test)
Can you also take a peek at the starter and make sure the start signal wire is secure on the solenoid
I'm going to ask you to measure for Voltage on pin 30 of the start relay, it should be there if the key is On, it should also be on pin 86, Test it to chassis with a 12 Volt lamp if you don't have a meter.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Time to prove out the starter and battery I think.
With the bike in Neutral, Key OFF and the clutch pulled for safety touch a wire from the spade connector on the solenoid to battery +
Use a #16 at least, the inrush current will smoke a smaller wire.
https://ibb.co/tH2QJ7T
It should crank over with no interlocks whatsoever, just the battery and starter.
Of course you can then turn the key on and see if it runs.
BTW you think you can hear/feel the starter relay click, its possible one of the wires has become dislodged 30 or 87

[Vagrant]

The bike was serviced at a Guzzi dealership for a recall. I was assured they checked everything. Never the less, I did try my other battery and it does the same thing. I made sure it was charged up before I tried it.

The ground wire is still securely attached, does not move at all. I did swap all the relays and tried various setups, the only one that will do anything is with the original right one in the same spot. I dont have a meter, not sure what else to try. I can try opening up the other relay box, and going on at a time swapping.

Any chance you put a two prong relay back where a five needed to be? I  always buy new five prongs for all holes.

[Bulldog9]

If you haven't yet, in addition to checking batter and grounds, you should check the connections at the starter. Is the spade connector firmly seated? Is the power lead tight?

Being that the relay clicks, this likely eliminates the side stand or starter switch.Unlikely (though not impossible) that the relay crapped out. If the connections at the starter are good, I would pull the spade connector, and put a volt meter between the spade connector (wire) and ground. If it shows 12V when you engage the starter button, that means the relay is good, and likely the solenoid (on the starter). Of course you have to remove the starter cover to get to all that. 

I personally would NOT start pulling and swapping relays.  Go out and grab an elcheapo volt meter from wallywold (or something better) Is a valuable tool even if used infrequently. Shoot me a PM with your e-mail, and I can send you the service manual on PDF. Has a ton of info.

[fallguy]

I do appreciated all the replies and ideas. Haven't had time to try anything yet, but I will tonight.

All the relays are 5 prong. I will triple check the ground wire on the starter, and the other connections. I will stop by and get a meter too so I can check and see if things are where they are supposed to be.

[fallguy]

I double checked all the connections, pulled off the starter and looked again at the ground wire. It was securely on there, would not budge. I pulled the spade connector off the starter, and crimped it a bit more and put it back on. The positive wire that connects to the starter did not have the ruibber shield over the nut that connects it. I pulled it up so that it covered the wire and nut. Put the starter back on, and it fired right up.

When TN Mark came over with my first electrical problem, we did the same thing with the spade connector, and it started up then too. We thought that was it, but ended up being the ground wire. It appears connections are just not great. It was dark when I did this, so in the next few days I will pull off the spade connector again, scrape the surface to make sure that the connection is good.

I got honed in on the relay when I head it, and felt it. I should have just traced the basic connections before assuming it was a relay, I really do appreciate the help from people and your patience. Especially Kiwi who texted and spent some personal time trying to help me. In the future (hopefully not!!!) i will just do basic testing on wires and checking connections.

Here is a pic of the spade connector (I pulled it off) and the positive from the wire with the cover off. I dont think anything hit that pos wire and sparked, but who knows.

[rschrum]

Check the crimp on the female spade connector.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I asked Fallguy to get back to me with the relay information, they are a 4 pin Omron G8HN series marked LANCIA FIAT ALFA and  a part No that doesn't match the Omron format, these are G8HN series similar to the ones used in many earlier Guzzi's
Might I suggest instead of purchasing spare 4 pin relays you purchase 5 pin Omron, they can also be used in the earlier bikes that needed the Normally Open contact. DigiKey carry these as part No Z2247-ND at $4.51 each Beware of the relays posted on fleabay many of those are USED at higher cost than new DigiKey ones.
https://omronfs.omron.com/en_US/ecb/products/pdf/en-g8hn.pdf  You might see them rated at 10 Amps that's the Normally closed contact, the Normally open is 20 Amps
 

[Bulldog9]

I do appreciated all the replies and ideas. Haven't had time to try anything yet, but I will tonight.

All the relays are 5 prong. I will triple check the ground wire on the starter, and the other connections. I will stop by and get a meter too so I can check and see if things are where they are supposed to be.

That's where I was thinking the issue was. Clean the spade, tighten the crimp, and schmear some Vaseline or die-electric grease on the spade and slide it back on carefully.  Mine was loose, as was the spade connector for the oil pressure sensor. My guess is a gorilla jammed them on at an angle, which bent/loosened the crimps creating a loose fit. I found the starter issue by accident in my post delivery checkover, but was forced to address the oil pressure spade due to the triangle of death and oil can light.

[Kiwi_Roy]

That's where I was thinking the issue was. Clean the spade, tighten the crimp, and schmear some Vaseline or die-electric grease on the spade and slide it back on carefully.  Mine was loose, as was the spade connector for the oil pressure sensor. My guess is a gorilla jammed them on at an angle, which bent/loosened the crimps creating a loose fit. I found the starter issue by accident in my post delivery checkover, but was forced to address the oil pressure spade due to the triangle of death and oil can light.

It sounds like this is definitely something owners should be on the lookout for, am I right in thinking the loom is common to all the 1400 Guzzi's?
There's probably close to 50 Amps inrush through that innocent looking connector, it doesn't take much resistance before it generates some heat, use Vaseline to prevent it corroding not die-electric grease.

[Chuck in Indiana]

die-electric grease

  

A relay clicking generally means it working. It sends power to the spade connector on the starter. A loose or corroded connection there.. and all you hear is a click. Like KR sez: Go to Harbor Freight, and get one of their cheap or maybe FREE (Guzzi content)  meters, unhook the spade terminal, put the red lead on the wire, the black on ground, and push the starter button. You should see around 12 volts dc. Report back.

[redrider90]

Is there any reason why you haven't tried jumping this off to a running car battery?  Which leads to me ask is it allowed on these newer computer models to by-pass the whole system and use a jumper cable from the battery directly to the solenoid?
I do not believe a single click means the relay is good. My Mille with its old world components will give a single click with either a bad connection to the relay or a low battery.  It never has acted like a car with a low battery. One click and it stops. That statement is based on old world components and maybe the computer driven systems act differently??

[Bulldog9]

Is there any reason why you haven't tried jumping this off to a running car battery?  Which leads to me ask is it allowed on these newer computer models to by-pass the whole system and use a jumper cable from the battery directly to the solenoid?
I do not believe a single click means the relay is good. My Mille with its old world components will give a single click with either a bad connection to the relay or a low battery.  It never has acted like a car with a low battery. One click and it stops. That statement is based on old world components and maybe the computer driven systems act differently??

I'm pretty sure he traced the issue to the spade connector from the relay to the starter solenoid being loose. Simple fix.

[fallguy]

I have cleaned off the spade connector, looked clean already. Just scraped the metal a little on all sides. Almost drilled a little hole though and put a small wire through the spade and the connector pin, then wrapped the wire around a few times To make sure it didnt go anywhere and had contact. But didnt feel like it so I just pinched it a bit to make a tighter connection, put a light coat of Vaseline on it, and then connected it. Tried to pinch it a bit more with needle nose after it was on. Felt pretty snug. Started right up. This motor as we know vibrates like hell. So I will randomly check it out when doing other things. And go back to connections first no matter what happens next.