How much technology is enough?

[Motormike]

I have nothing against technology per se, it's just the viability and cost to repair it if and when it does go Tango Uniform.  I'm retired now, and simply not in a position to pay the $100 (and up) labor costs today's dealerships charge.  Especially since I know the shop tech may only see $15 dollars an hour of that.  I know the drill, take your new high-tech motor vehicle into the service department.  The tech hooks up his fancy, proprietary software diagnostic computer to it, and says, "It's showing a D-365876-36B code, that means your warp-coil is bad." Or in the event the computer shows nothing, the only thing blanker is the look on the techs face:  "Well, we're not sure, but that will be $150 dollars to check the diagnostic codes."

[John A]

It just ain’t gonna catch on,  all this new stuff . https://youtu.be/p45T7U5oi9Q

[Wayne Orwig]

On my carbed Cali 1100, I installed an air fuel sensor in the crossover. I found that cruising around 55 MPH, it was too lean. When cruising around 70 MPH, it was too rich. I spent a LOT of dollars and literally years trying to fix that. No needles, jets, or slides could do it. I needed a needle with an odd bell shape I guess.
I moved on to fuel injection. Even my Centauro fuel injection was more adjustable. Too lean here, bump up the number. Too rich there, bump down the number.

Nothing wrong with learning to use a new tool to get a job done better.

 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

"New technology" - nice place to visit, but I don't want to live there. 

"Enough" for me is the electronic ignition on a Moto Morini (high-tech in '72!).

I must be doing something wrong. My carbs aren't "finicky", points stay gapped for over 10k miles, drum brakes stop and are anti-lock  , triple discs on the 'Vert stop better of course, suspension is on the firm side but compliant enough for all-day comfort, seats are more comfortable than anything modern, no electrical issues. The only necessary non-maintenance job I've done on the Guzzis in the last two years was fixing the rounded off fluid pump hex piece on the Convert. 

LED lighting - got it, easy to add. No need to buy a modern bike to get it. Charging system could be a bit more powerful on the Convert, but the V700 has an (aftermarket) alternator which puts out 600 watts.

Y'all keep buying the new "high-tech, wiz-bang, greatest thing since sliced bread" bikes - that leaves more of the oldies for me. 

[PhilB]

I'm 56, and started riding on '60's and '70's bikes.  I still have a collection of vintage '60's scooters.  I ride a '95 Ducati M900 Monster for normal transportation.

I think bike tech mostly peaked in the '90's.  Manufacturing technology had advanced a lot by then from the '70's, so the bikes (and other machines) were more consistently built, and to better tolerances.  But the machines themselves had not yet become too complex.  My '95 M900 still has no computers, no gizmotronic electronics -- just simple and could be rebuilt in your garage with hand tools if needed.  But still well-built and modern enough to be reliable.  My last bike, a '93 M900 Monster pretty much identical the one I have now, I rode daily for 24 years and 265K miles, and it was solid as an anvil.  We got taken out by a hit-and-run driver 2 years ago, otherwise I'd still be riding it, and pushing 300K miles by now.

The brakes were triple Brembo discs and worked fine.  The carbs were reliable and solid.  They needed to be rebuilt about every 30K, but that wasn't a huge deal.  I had a good tech who would rejet them twice a year for the seasons; modern FI would eliminate that.  So for carbs vs. FI, I could go either way.  The charging system was good enough to let me add heated gloves, and that's all I really needed.  Everything really just worked, easily and well, and was durable.

The only modern tech that I really like is a good modern ABS system.  I see that as the biggest advance in safety since the tubeless tire.  My next bike will be modern for that reason, and pretty much that reason only.

PhilB

[Old Jock]

An oft assumed, but incorrect assumption.

Modern vehicles ON A WHOLE (there are glorious f'up exceptions) are proven to be more reliable and longer lasting.

Oh well I've been corrected then, I must have been ASS-uming.

Thanks for the benefit of your wisdom and taking the time to set me straight, appreciated

 

[tommy2cyl]

A doctoral thesis could easily be written on the question posed by this thread.  Machines and the people that use them have all benefitted from technological advancements in metal alloys, tire compounds, chassis design, lubricants, combustion efficiency for a cleaner environment.  For me, this discussion revolves around the proliferation of electronics and the employment thereof.  Everyone will have a different opinion on those benefits.  I just purchased a V 85, by far the most tech laden 2 wheel vehicle I have owned.  I like RBW throttle & cruise control.  Huge improvement over a throttle lock.  If you ride long distances it has value, if you are a day tripper, probably not. Ditto on heated grips.  Never had ABS before.  No matter how totally focused you are on a bike, instantaneous  circumstances occur.  Read too many reports of riders experiences how a panic stop with ABS saved their bacon.  It has value to me.  Just finished up a 6 day ride and the last day in 4 hours of heavy rain.  Never occurred to me to change bike into rain mode. Apparently traction control isn't as important to me.  I have read many testimonials by long time mechanics who all said that FI is virtually bulletproof. Sure, it is possible to have problems, but not bloody likely.  Compared to carbs, it is amazingly efficient and dependable.  Especially riding through large elevation changes.  I don't see an argument here other than old school guys that like to tinker and take joy from a carb rebuild.  If carbs were better they'd still be in cars.  I prefer the simplicity of air cooled.  I don't want to mess with a chain on my long haul bike, so I prefer the "complexity" of a shaft drive.  I bought the V 85 because for me it was the most "old school" modern mid size adventure motorcycle on the market.  I still look with great fondness and many trouble free miles at my 20 year old DR 350. 

[Aaron D.]

Just took a ride on one of my low tech bikes. No ECU, no carbs, no motor.
Some years I put more miles on pedaled bikes.

I drive way too much to have a car with carbs/points etc. anymore. My current Audi is near to 200,000 miles and runs beautifully Still looks good too.

2 ends of the rope, I guess.

[bodine99]

The tipping point for me was (a story I've told before) when my sister bought a brand new Chevy mini-van, 2010 or so.

Two weeks after she bought it, it just stopped dead on the side of the road, all electrics out - I happened to be the one who picked her up to get home.   The dealer came and got the car - a week later they returned it to her "fixed".

Four days after that, it went dead again.   This time she called the dealer to come pick her up and get ready to cut her a check for the full refund amount, which they did; I suppose the tone of her voice had undertones of "lemon law", "lawsuits", "bad publicity", etc which they recognized and reacted to.   She went that day and bought a Toyota van, which did well for her.

The Chevy dealer was on her route to work.   One day, she saw her "old" van in the lot, with a guy looking at it, clipboard in hand.    She (out of curiosity and a desire to help (!)) stopped in, and talked to him. 

Turns out he was a GM service rep, surveying the van for breaking up for parts.    He said that the $20,000 wholesale value of the van could easily be used up in parts and labor trying to find the problem, and so the "brand new van" wasn't worth trying to diagnose and fix.   Even by the factory, much less the factory-trained dealer.

Summary for this "old man" who "doesn't appreciate computer technology" and makes "bad assumptions" about high-tech ......   "I Don't Want That Kind Of Vehicle Any More".    Basically disposable, unfixable, doesn't do a thing that I really care about that the old ones won't do.   I'm not a fanatic, though - our two-up 1930-s design bike, the Norton MkIII has disc brakes, and I've done TLS brake upgrades on the BSAs.

Probably 300,000 of the almost 500K lifetime miles that I have on bikes are on 50's - 70's technology bikes.   Of the 7 bikes in my shed, two of them have fuel injection, but the others work just fine for me.   I not only remember the differences from "the old days", but I have "the old days" in my shed, and Fay and I ride them.

Note that since this opinion of mine was developed by experience and not by debate, I can't be debated into a different position, and there are no "assumptions" being made, none at all.   Folks are just going to have to understand that people can look at the same data and come to a completely different conclusion than they did, and live by that conclusion.   That can be hard, I know.
YUP!!!
Lannis

[Motormike]

I drive way too much to have a car with carbs/points etc. anymore. My current Audi is near to 200,000 miles and runs beautifully Still looks good too.

Even I don't want to go back to points ignition systems.  Not that much of a Luddite!

[kingoffleece]

At least part of it is the execution.  I read, and it sums it up quite nicely in a British magazine, that it's better to have one analog setting that works rather than 15 digital one's that don't quite get it done.  These things usually improve over time and successive versions.

[Turin]

I've become a big fan of fuel injection. My intro to FI was rocky, my first injected bike being a DaytonaRS with its crap mapping, and my second being a quota with its factory ecu. after lots of experimenting, tweaking chips, etc. They both run well.
Made me suspect of FI.
 later I had a 2005 suzuki with FI that ran flawlessly. I wondered why the Italians couldn't pull that off. Turns out they could, as was proved to me by my recently acquired  1991 Duc 907. (Shame on guzzi for shipping out bikes that way)

I test rode a GS BMW and did not like the ABS. No ABS for me.
I can't get my head around the idea of fly by wire throttles and brakes.
I ride like it's a sport, and love when I can get the perfect line through a corner. Nanny electronic controls, gyroscopes, and power modes seem like cheating.

[RaceyStoner27]

[Lannis]

Just took a ride on one of my low tech bikes. No ECU, no carbs, no motor.
Some years I put more miles on pedaled bikes.

I drive way too much to have a car with carbs/points etc. anymore. My current Audi is near to 200,000 miles and runs beautifully Still looks good too.

2 ends of the rope, I guess.

Bob Corfield's got a firm grip on one end of that rope.   He showed up at our Virginia Guzzi lunch (350 mile trip for him) on his 1000SP, which turned over 200,000 miles on the journey.   

Still running points, sees no reason to change, never had any problem with them.   That's some real miles.

Lannis

[Aaron D.]

Bob Corfield's got a firm grip on one end of that rope.   He showed up at our Virginia Guzzi lunch (350 mile trip for him) on his 1000SP, which turned over 200,000 miles on the journey.   

Still running points, sees no reason to change, never had any problem with them.   That's some real miles.

Lannis

Nice, 200,000 on an SP with points. But my car is a '14

[RaceyStoner27]

Why fiddle with carbs OR FI?

[SmithSwede]

I am not trying to argue with anyone.  Just relating my experiences and thoughts.

I’d like FI a whole lot more if I got substantial, indisputable, tangible benefits.  It would be a totally situation if in my experience a carbed bike got me 40 mpg, but then a new-fangled FI on a similar machine got me 70 mpg.    Or if instead I had been stranded numerous times due to carb issues, but never by FI.

What I instead see is about the same gas mileage, if not worse for FI.   About the same driveability, but probably worse for FI. Yet carbs have never stranded me, while FI and high tech electronics have.   Several times.   

I’m currently wrestling to get an FI small block Guzzi to even friggin’ START, after it stranded me become of some arcane FI drama.   Why?  Some damn sensor or related circuit just shut down the whole show, no spark, no gas.    Doesn’t seem easy to me to diagnose the problem.   It runs now.  But I have serious trust issues based on the supposedly “superior” FI technology that, like I said, doesn’t achieve miracles like 70 mpg. 

I submit to you that a carb system would not do this to me. Yes, it might leak.  Yes, it might wear and slowly get crappier gas mileage, gently telling me it needs attention.   Yes, it might ask for a more extended warm up period or use of a choke.  Yes, if I suddenly take a day trip from sea level Texas to Leadville, CO I might have sub-optimal fueling in Colorado.   But at least it would always try to put friggin’ gas into my gas powered engine, and I’d be running on the road!!  In contrast, a Prima Donna FI system might just decide it doesn’t want to play. 

FI Nazi says:  No gas or spark for you!    Satisfy my mysterious demands. 

Ok. How is that clearly and demonstrably better?

The analogy I have in mind is the the old-fashioned non-sealed chains versus the modern 0-ring chains.    There is no contest.  There is basically zero downside to using a modern sealed chain.  It lasts vastly longer.   It is no-brainer to run a sealed chain.  There basically aren’t any soi disant Luddites singing the praises of non-sealed chains to the early adopters of sealed chains. 
I don’t see carbs versus FI as anything like that sort of no-brainer. 

[Kev m]

Oh well I've been corrected then, I must have been ASS-uming.

Thanks for the benefit of your wisdom and taking the time to set me straight, appreciated

No problem. 

No charge either. 

But fwiw it's common comment I've found over the years so I've looked into it and statistically (lies, damn lies) seem to show the assumption isn't a good one. And that's not really surprising if you look at so many other things in life, science, physics, where you might want to assume one thing and then are surprised by the other.

But the good news is that in this endeavor we call life Humana seem to continue to make strides. Yeah we go sideways sometimes, but largely the quality of manufacturing and its results have gone up and up.

Materials, capabilities, etc.

I know this, I see this, and then I still look at my wife and ask if she REALLY wants all those features on her next car she wants to keep 10 years... Cause it's so easy to think the other way.

[Ryan]

On a car, I want whatever it takes to go 100k between tune-ups, satisfy the eco crowd, get me 400+ hp and get me 30mpg in the process. On my bike, I want fuel injection, cruise would be nice, a useful power curve and constant throttle response. I have no need for automatic suspension or transmission, ride modes, a configurable digital dash, or wheelie control. In my opinion, the rider should control his machine. 

[pete roper]

This much!



I nearly bought a Super Cub. Now Honda have made exactly what Jude and I need for back lane cruising and I'm really incentivised to do a lap of Oz. It would just be far too easy on the Stelvio!

Pete

[Smithy]

I like old stuff, my Rudge is 90 years old and is a buzz to ride and own, that said it would have been cutting edge at the time, but I love new tech as well. I have my eye on the ZH2 or Rocket 3, any new bike I own must have, TFT, Cruise, phone connectivity, heated grips and big service intervals. The beauty is we can go back to simple or ramp it right up with tons of tech.

[Huzo]

This horse has been beaten on a multi yearly basis.

Actually looks more like a Donkey.

[kingoffleece]

And, part of the discussion is promises undelivered.  The collective "we" get told every advance is the latest and greatest-often to experience just the opposite.  So, naturally, the reaction becomes "what I had worked great and now this?!"

Doctoral topic indeed!

[Noguzznoglory]

Security keys (chipped keys) suck!!! Since they first popped up on cars I’d hazard a guess that car and motorcycle thefts haven’t dropped at all

[Old Jock]

No problem. 

No charge either. 

But fwiw it's common comment I've found over the years so I've looked into it and statistically (lies, damn lies) seem to show the assumption isn't a good one. And that's not really surprising if you look at so many other things in life, science, physics, where you might want to assume one thing and then are surprised by the other.

But the good news is that in this endeavor we call life Humana seem to continue to make strides. Yeah we go sideways sometimes, but largely the quality of manufacturing and its results have gone up and up.

Materials, capabilities, etc.

I know this, I see this, and then I still look at my wife and ask if she REALLY wants all those features on her next car she wants to keep 10 years... Cause it's so easy to think the other way.

I hear where you're coming from, but God help you if you spend 20k on a new motorcycle with all the whistles and bells and you get the Lemon (or worse you buy the second hand lemon with none of the warranty.)

Statisically there is no doubt that stuff is getting better and more reliable, but, and it applies a lot more to motorcycles than cars that rogue bikes still exist. Motorcycle volumes are far lower and, here anyway, the trade is nowhere near as slick or under the same scrutiny as it is with car manufacture.

Just 2 days back a guy I know just bought an electric Jag which broke down, probably less than a few months old. Turns out it developed an unexplained voltage spike. Blew the high Voltage fuses, fried several batteries, and blew quite a bit of the low voltage circuitry for good measure too. He's fine it's brand new he's just gotta decide if he wants a brand new one from the factory or use the UK's version of your Lemon Laws.

What happens though if it developed that same fault outta warranty? 

If you do get the lemon you'll probably not be able to fix it yourself and even the shop might not, and you'll be in a circle of pain trying to put it right and no doubt spend time and effort arguing with the manufacturer.

I'd just rather not take the chance that's all, when it comes to motorcycles the older tech has all I need and I can understand the machine take it apart and (probably) fix it. A modern machine I won't have the diagnostic tools or know how, so I get it to the shop, pay 70-90 GBP pr hour for a mechanic's time and pray he knows what he is doing.

Thanks but no thanks Kev you walk your street and I'll walk mine, but I'm not going to be nipping out to purchase a new overpriced, overpowered, overcomplex, oversize plastic training shoe anytime soon

[Kev m]

I hear where you're coming from, but God help you if you spend 20k on a new motorcycle with all the whistles and bells and you get the Lemon (or worse you buy the second hand lemon with none of the warranty.)

Statisically there is no doubt that stuff is getting better and more reliable, but, and it applies a lot more to motorcycles than cars that rogue bikes still exist. Motorcycle volumes are far lower and, here anyway, the trade is nowhere near as slick or under the same scrutiny as it is with car manufacture.

Just 2 days back a guy I know just bought an electric Jag which broke down, probably less than a few months old. Turns out it developed an unexplained voltage spike. Blew the high Voltage fuses, fried several batteries, and blew quite a bit of the low voltage circuitry for good measure too. He's fine it's brand new he's just gotta decide if he wants a brand new one from the factory or use the UK's version of your Lemon Laws.

What happens though if it developed that same fault outta warranty? 

If you do get the lemon you'll probably not be able to fix it yourself and even the shop might not, and you'll be in a circle of pain trying to put it right and no doubt spend time and effort arguing with the manufacturer.

I'd just rather not take the chance that's all, when it comes to motorcycles the older tech has all I need and I can understand the machine take it apart and (probably) fix it. A modern machine I won't have the diagnostic tools or know how, so I get it to the shop, pay 70-90 GBP pr hour for a mechanic's time and pray he knows what he is doing.

Thanks but no thanks Kev you walk your street and I'll walk mine, but I'm not going to be nipping out to purchase a new overpriced, overpowered, overcomplex, oversize plastic training shoe anytime soon

Fair enough.

Everytime I buy a new vehicle, appliance, or pricey electronics device they ask me if I want to buy an extended warranty.

This is where I inform them that I don't and have never and once listed my lifelong trend of not buying warranties on a spread sheet and figured out that over my life I've already saved enough to buy a Land Rover (or Jag) new for cash so IF said thing breaks out of warranty I'm still ahead and I'm not gonna worry about it.

Ymmv it's all good.

[SmithSwede]

Security keys (chipped keys) suck!!! Since they first popped up on cars I’d hazard a guess that car and motorcycle thefts haven’t dropped at all

Excellent point.   BMW’s defective antenna sensing rings for their anti-theft keys stranded me twice on an F800.   After being towed to the dealer the second time, I told them I did not want this feature.    Remove it or disable it.  I would gladly accept the risk of theft but I want to be able to rely on my bike starting.

I was told it was impossible to remove or disable it.

Hmmm.  I never wanted that “feature”  and all it ever accomplished was repeated and significant hassle to me.   And the bonus was I can’t get rid of it either.

[Tusayan]

Reading this and the other thread, it’s clear there’s at least one more item of “technology” I don’t want to buy even the slightest bit - chipped keys and alarm systems.

Or locking gas caps for that matter... virtually the only time the keys on my bikes come out of the ignition is to buy gas, and I’d prefer never to remove them for that purpose.  I’ll take an conventionally keyed ignition lock for the occasions when it’s useful, but don’t need more ‘security’.

Please, somebody get all this crap off our new motorcycles.

[Motormike]

I submit to you that a carb system would not do this to me. Yes, it might leak.  Yes, it might wear and slowly get crappier gas mileage, gently telling me it needs attention.   Yes, it might ask for a more extended warm up period or use of a choke.  Yes, if I suddenly take a day trip from sea level Texas to Leadville, TX I might have sub-optimal fueling in Colorado.   But at least it would always try to put friggin’ gas into my gas powered engine, and I’d be running on the road!!  In contrast, a Prima Donna FI system might just decide it doesn’t want to play. 

Exactly!  Analog wears out slowly over time, giving you ample warning it needs attention.  With digital, it's all or nothing.  If your lucky on a very new bike, it might have some type of "limp home" mode where you can putt-putt along at 15 mph across the Arizona desert.  It's the same in aviation.  I always told people "computers ruined airplanes."  Analog would give you subtle warnings it was time to have something checked by the mechanics.  With digital, the slightest voltage transient would throw a warning light, almost always a false alarm, but you still had to get it checked out.  Analog systems are much more forgiving.