CCA Starter war Tommy v Jerry v Tiddly

[jacksonracingcomau]

Recent thread got my interest, CCA requirements for Guzzi and others , this resolved I think but my little test today might be of interest to others
Engines
SB 650 8 valve and BB 1100 Cali
Starters Lucas for Tommy, orig to bike, bet never touched 95 K odd km
Bosch for Jerry, late alloy nosed one lemans 3 on,  rebuilt with bushes and brushes a few years ago
Arrowhead (snide Valeo ? ) for Tiddly (brand new today, reason for test)

Tester — a Snap On current stunt, turns amps into milliamps to read load, can’t swear to accuracy but is a constant and speed of starters goes with load read. If anyone has more accurate tool, please post

Multiple tests hot and (not very) cold, 20 c or 50 f

650 with Tommy sub 50 amps, peak of 90
1100 with Jerry sub 100 amps peak of 170
1100 with Tiddly sub 50 amps peak of 110
Peaks are, I think, when engine stopped halfway through compression stroke so more load initially

Didn’t take Tommy off but weighed the other two
5,7 lbs Tiddly 8.8 for fat Jerry

For $60 USD, there is some gain, the next test more conclusive, if I can get away with sub 2 lbs lithium battery it will be weight loss of more than 12 over what I’m running, that’s proper relevant to me, esp the little one, bigger percentage of overall obviously and already loads lighter than big one. The small lithium batteries are cheap too

But the Tiddly starter doesn’t sound as nice as the other two, makes a clunk ! longevity may not be there, haven’t got a gen Valeo here to compare noise, might be exactly same ?

[Kiwi_Roy]

Not very scientific.
At least you could use all starters on the same bike
Just Saying

[jacksonracingcomau]

When I pick battery to buy I will test tiddly on little one but result conclusive to me, the tommy one may or may not be as fast / efficient as tiddly, wasn’t really what I was testing for, is also heavy and prob nla, certainly not for $60
If you have all 3 and better tool, please post,

[Brian UK]

I thought it would be pretty obvious that a permanent magent motor will require far less amps than one with a field coil.

The other thing which is critical is the air temp at the time of test. Get to sub zero celcius and the requirements change considerably.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Sorry if I came across as critical, I have always been interested in starters as I used to overhaul lots of different ones as an apprentice 6V and 12V for cars and 24V for mid size diesel engines.
Certainly lb for lb the Valeo knock off wins hands down. I believe the Lucas will be very close to the Bosch as a series motor but the ones I am used to never had a solenoid to engage the gear they used a spiral spline to throw the gear out to engage the ring gear.
The Valeo KO has a planetary gear reducer, its more like a constant speed shunt motor as the field strength remains the same.

[Tony F]

I fitted a Roadrunner high performance starter from these guys:

https://www.roadrunner-starters.com/

https://www.roadrunner-starters.com/collections/motorcycle

to my over-bored SP1000 about 13 or 14 years ago. The old Bosch really struggled and even burnt a field coil which I had rewound. The Roadrunner was a revelation, it really spun it over. Not a cheap fix but there weren't the options in the market in those days.

Downside is it sounds like a Japanese starter (same as my mates SV650) because that is what it is.

Apologies for the distraction!

Tony

[jacksonracingcomau]

I thought it would be pretty obvious that a permanent magent motor will require far less amps than one with a field coil.

The other thing which is critical is the air temp at the time of test. Get to sub zero celcius and the requirements change considerably.

At idle shunt reads 4 amps the other way ( charging ) with perm nothing with excited, similar at 1400 rpm
Drag at cranking speed is negligible for this test but yes very relevant for efficiency, mpg , bhp, etc

All at same cold temp, I don’t do sub zero but for sure same difference will show, if anyone in deep winter tests both I’ll bet on the tiddly or real valeo
Love the gerry one, can rebuild in minutes for peanuts, these $60 ones are definitely disposable and not my approved way at all but weight and cca efficiency are winning right now.
Bosch stays in a box for one day

[Brian UK]

I was thinking the drag of the engine at cold temperatures will be greater than at warm ones.  Drag in the starter motor would be very small by comparison.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Update
Tested tommy on 1100 and tiddly on 650
He’s actually 1ib heavier than gerry
Tool definitely not getting me any figures like cca ratings on batteries, peaks a bit irrelevant I think, real peaks could be way higher and shunt too slow to react, be good to do this with better but , for my purpose , proven.
Tommy on 1100 <70
Tiddly on 650 < 40

650 obviously needs less but I knew that anyway, battery in it was one that wasn’t doing it anymore on 1100

Real find of day
YTX 7 BS battery on 1100 (nominal 150 cca ) will not even turn with gerry or tommy, spins wildly on tiddly, not discernible difference to big battery, starts instantly when asked

650 has tiddly starter for now with this ytx 7 in it, will prove it hot and as cold as we get in summer
Then both back in 1100 to prove that
LFP 7 battery looks good enough for both bikes with tiddly, huge weight and space saving with both, even this ytx 7 battery is half the weight of rtz 14 I use normally

Never going to see sub zero temps, I’m too old for that ! Flights are cheap to northern hemisphere or can ride to tropics here,
But according to cca test procedure , testing at 0F ifor 30 seconds is required
For me, CA (marine battery test) well cold enough at 0 C

If anyone in real cold can test true current draw against nominal battery cca I’m interested

[Kiwi_Roy]

Dredging up some electrical theory
The CCA of the battery is telling you what the battery is capable of putting out.
The Amps you are reading should always be less, really not CCA
A DC motor speed is proportional to the current through the Armature
A motor is also a generator as it speeds up it generates a Voltage in reverse to the battery commonly known as Back EMF (Electro Motive Force another name for Voltage)
The Bosch and presumably the Lucas are series motors, this is the type of motor traditionally used in traction service (locomotives etc) because as the load drops off the series fields get weaker the Back EMF gets less so they draw more current through the armature increasing the speed. We were taught that a series motor will overspeed and fly to bits if run no load, luckily there is enough windage load in a starter so that doesn't happen.
The Valeo is like a shunt motor the field strength is constant, it will only go so fast because the Back EMF acting against the battery EMF soon limits the current.
BTW, Modern locomotives use AC motors with a variable frequency drive they will only go as fast as the frequency they are supplied,

[Brian UK]

BTW, Modern locomotives use AC motors with a variable frequency drive they will only go as fast as the frequency they are supplied,

As in the brushless motors in modern power tools.

The CCA figure for a battery is really academic, in practice you will never get near those figures in normal use.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Dredging up some electrical theory
The CCA of the battery is telling you what the battery is capable of putting out.
The Amps you are reading should always be less, really not CCA

Yes, exactly
What was odd was battery stalling at starter motor pulling way less amps than rated CCA
New battery, just filled and fully charged
CCA test procedure is apparently 30 secs at zero farenheit, no way could this battery get better that cold
Have a massive car battery, more accurate way to read starter draw is to use that, ignore CCA rating

But same battery is happily in the 650 with tiddly starter
Will try both on 1100 before buying lithium, the point of this test.
No question on which starter is best for this

[jacksonracingcomau]

Proved so good I bought another one, actually two, one for mate, gotta love amazon free freight from USA

These came with documented tests, note difference between them, either proves it did happen or good liars, the dv logo easily found on net, looks like proper test kit.
If we did this on gerry and tommy , numbers would be very very different
Volt drop across solenoid easy to do, others out of my league





Small block with this tiny lipo, starts by blowing on button !




Will run it for a few more weeks then try that battery in big block, I’m confident it’ll do it
Battery weighs just over a pound, combined saving is substantial, extra space under seat good too.

For anyone wanting to run lipo, using tiddly starter makes perfect sense, small lipos much cheaper than higher rated ones, this one nominal 180 CCA

[Chuck in Indiana]

I have ^^^^^ the same on the Mighty Scura and AeroLario. Can't speak to longevity as I just installed them last year, but they *appear* to be well made and certainly do the job. Cheap. (Guzzi content) You can't buy the parts to overhaul a Valeo or Bosch for 60 bux.

[jacksonracingcomau]

I have ^^^^^ the same on the Mighty Scura and AeroLario. Can't speak to longevity as I just installed them last year, but they *appear* to be well made and certainly do the job. Cheap. (Guzzi content) You can't buy the parts to overhaul a Valeo or Bosch for 60 bux.

Actually Bosch rebuild kits (bushes and brushes) are only $10 and I still have a few in stock
But even brand new Bosch will not spin up like this on dinky battery, I failed with a lipo battery years ago, finally revisited, the tiddly starter is the answer.
Hate the disposable world, this goes against my grain but hate heavy , big and slow more, after 42 years (on the 19th of this month) of believing in Bosch and rebuilding lots of them I’ve gone to the dark side.
What next ? Maybe I’ll buy a Honda ?

[Testarossa]

I have some questions about CCA. If it's amps available for 30 seconds at 0F, then a linear formula (and I know battery output isn't linear) suggests that 300 CCA could provide 3000 amps for 3 seconds. That sounds ridiculous. My bikes start within a second, so all I need is at most 100 amps for 3 seconds, right? That would be something like 8.3% of one amp hour -- round it up to 10%. At room temperature a 12ah battery ought to be plenty. Am I missing something?

[jacksonracingcomau]

I have some questions about CCA. If it's amps available for 30 seconds at 0F, then a linear formula (and I know battery output isn't linear) suggests that 300 CCA could provide 3000 amps for 3 seconds. That sounds ridiculous. My bikes start within a second, so all I need is at most 100 amps for 3 seconds, right? That would be something like 8.3% of one amp hour -- round it up to 10%. At room temperature a 12ah battery ought to be plenty. Am I missing something?

Yes, CCA test is exhaustive, use google
But with Bosch I’ve been using 14 ah (ytx 14) for 20 odd years, is smallest I was happy with
With the tiddly one, the lipo on SB is equivalent to YT7B4 and whizzes it
Will prove on BB over winter, be first  time for cold starts on my bikes for 10 years, can’t fly to sunshine this year, even riding north will not be approved of, so guess I’ll be testing battery more than normal
Results to follow

[Chuck in Indiana]

Actually Bosch rebuild kits (bushes and brushes) are only $10 and I still have a few in stock
But even brand new Bosch will not spin up like this on dinky battery, I failed with a lipo battery years ago, finally revisited, the tiddly starter is the answer.
Hate the disposable world, this goes against my grain but hate heavy , big and slow more, after 42 years (on the 19th of this month) of believing in Bosch and rebuilding lots of them I’ve gone to the dark side.
What next ? Maybe I’ll buy a Honda ?

My bad. I just *assumed* parts were expensive on the Bosch when I looked at MGC getting over $200 to rebuild them.
https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=37_159&products_id=318