V85 - more torque please

[ArchieFergus]

Triking has a Carc Guzzi based engine layout. So can be build with an euro 4 cali 1400 engine. Not all Cali 1400 are euro 4. 
http://www.type4.trikingsportscars.co.uk/ But different from the 4 wheel one.
I would not set hopes on tuning the V85 engine. Any change will lose the Euro 5 status.
If it has to be tuned, a compressor or turbo might be the best way. Since in the engine there is not much to gain, the factory did their best on that with even titanium valves.

If we could build and register it before the end of this year, a Euro 4-compliant engine would be fine. Unfortunately, it will not be completed until early next year, so we will have to fit a strangled block. Liberating it after registration is what we were looking at.

[elvisboy77]

We are building a vehicle using the V85 engine. We would like to optimise torque through the range. No doubt this has been raised before, so forgive me for bringing it up again. There are ample options (Stage 1/2, remap etc.), but which have members found to deliver the greatest benefit?

What exactly are you trying to change it from and to?

[ArchieFergus]

What exactly are you trying to change it from and to?

My brief to the vehicle builders was for something that could be pushed hard on back roads, cruise and overtake at 85mph on an autobahn and perhaps give us some track day fun. But there is only so much one can do with 850cc pulling 360kg.

I was reminded today that MG released an update for the ECU in March that improved response from tick-over to mid-range. Has anyone had that download and is the boost noticeable? 

[jacksonracingcomau]

My brief to the vehicle builders was for something that could be pushed hard on back roads, cruise and overtake at 85mph on an autobahn and perhaps give us some track day fun. But there is only so much one can do with 850cc pulling 360kg.

I was reminded today that MG released an update for the ECU in March that improved response from tick-over to mid-range. Has anyone had that download and is the boost noticeable?

Sounds like you’ve given the man an impossible job if he has to use a v85 motor with a citroen 2cv gearbox and the aerodynamics of a 1930’s roadster.
Looking forward to your appraisal of his meeting the brief.
If budget permits, an alternative sequential box would help lots, 4 speed is a serious limitation, add to that the “umbrella” gear lever and ................
If suitable box from modern car not available, go to Quaife with wallet prepared
After getting your approval, chuck a blower on it, making suitable pistons etc par for course.
Exhaust, intake and fuelling optimised
As much weight from car lost as possible from wheels to seat frames etc etc
Could be a little rocketship with enough quids thrown in but specced as is will just be a pretty car, faster than a JAP V twin from 30’s maybe but not in the game compared to your modern Morgan

[ArchieFergus]

Triking has a Carc Guzzi based engine layout. So can be build with an euro 4 cali 1400 engine. Not all Cali 1400 are euro 4. 
http://www.type4.trikingsportscars.co.uk/ But different from the 4 wheel one.
I would not set hopes on tuning the V85 engine. Any change will lose the Euro 5 status.
If it has to be tuned, a compressor or turbo might be the best way. Since in the engine there is not much to gain, the factory did their best on that with even titanium valves.

Sadly, as I have said above, new builds completed after 1 January will have to meet Euro 5 standards. While that will push up the value of M3Ws like mine, I fear that it will see the end of performance cyclecar manufacturing. Morgan is ceasing M3W production at the end of the year. Trikings etc will not be able to market models with more than 850/950 engines. So perhaps the future for these vehicles is supercharging smaller blocks?   

[coast range rider]

The new Ducati engine has more torque and is Euro 5 compliant:

https://www.webbikeworld.com/ducati-reveals-the-new-granturismo-v4-engine/

[Knuckle Dragger]

Having lost its Desmo valve gear, it should be pretty reliable - with extended service intervals - too.  Just the ticket for a more "automotive" installation.

Even if it isn't a classic V-twin, it still retains a superficial resemblance.  Nevertheless, with longitudinal cylinders & a transverse crank, it might take some mechanical alchemy & jiggery-pokery to transfer the drive through 90 degrees into a tailshaft!

[Moto Vita]

The new Ducati engine has more torque and is Euro 5 compliant:

https://www.webbikeworld.com/ducati-reveals-the-new-granturismo-v4-engine/

 But it needs a... radiator

[Kev m]

Just wondering out loud here. The V9 motor develops torque much lower in the rev band. Could a cam out of a V9 be put into a VIII 750 motor???

If so, and I don't know if it would work or not, (clearances and such), you could get the vehicle certified and retrofit the other cam afterward.

Just a thought.

John Henry

Not sure what you think you'd accomplish by that. There's not a big difference between a V9 and V7III torque curves (even though I think the difference in feel is much more from the saddle). I've never checked to see if the flywheels are different and wonder if that could be part of the feel.

But why wouldn't one just use a V9 motor as opposed to try and swap cams?

[ArchieFergus]

Thank you all for your suggestions. Do keep them coming. The build is due to be completed by the end of March and I will look again at tuning etc potential once we are past the 4500 rpm run in limitation. It may be that by then there will be a big bore kit; Rapid Bike or a professional remap might be worth a look; or we find that the works setup is peppier than we expect. 

[ArchieFergus]

PS - we will have to stick to Euro 5 requirements in order to get our SVA; what we do after that is our affair.

[ArchieFergus]

One further question: would a P3 camshaft fit the V85, or are there more up to date high lift cams that could work?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

The P3 is for old big-blocks and will not physically fit into a small-block. AFAIK, there are no performance cam options for the V85.

[Bulldog9]

PS - we will have to stick to Euro 5 requirements in order to get our SVA; what we do after that is our affair.

If that is the case then I wold source the cheapest V85 motor and ECU you can find. Get it set up, approved, etc. Then sell the motor and drop in a 1400 8V motor. I think they even use the same ECU (with different tunes).

You may even find you are happy with the V85 as is. Otherwise trying to get substantially more power or torque out of an already optimized powerlant you are trying to suck a rock through a straw.

[pauldaytona]

I just read that Euro 5 is delayed a year in the EU. So you still can put a 1400 euro 4 engine in. But if all is made for the v85 driveline, don't know how much extra work it is.
https://www.automobilwoche.de/article/20201020/AGENTURMELDUNGEN/310209965/1276/euro--norm-gilt-erst-ab--eu-parlament-verschiebt-abgasnorm-fuer-motorraeder

[ArchieFergus]

That is almost correct, but in the UK new vehicles registered after 1 January 2021 with motor cycle engines must be Euro 5 compliant.

[pebra]

That is almost correct, but in the UK new vehicles registered after 1 January 2021 with motor cycle engines must be Euro 5 compliant.

Ah, those Brits, always so EU compliant!
More so than the EU itself!

[ArchieFergus]

That's why Morgan has to stop production of the Three Wheeler at the end of the year. S&S has discontinued the X Wedge that powers it because it cannot comply.