Is this a Guzzi Tool?

[ozarquebus]

This was in the Toolkit from a 76 Convert. Is it a Moto Guzzi manufactured wrench or just a generic tool?

Part number 25 90 56 00

[Gliderjohn]

I would guess it was standard equipment as I bought a used 75 T-3 and that was one of the tools that came with it.
GliderJohn

[nc43bsa]

It is shown in Harper's catalog for a V700.

http://www.harpermoto.com/parts-lookup/pre-1980-moto-guzzis/v700-1967-69/tool-kit-and-gasket-sets.html

[John A]

It’s perfect for holding the rear drive crown wheel carrier whilst tourqueing it’s bolts. Sometimes can be sort of a fumblety affair. I put the wrench in a vice and I’ve not found a better way, that wrench fits the flats better than all my other high dollar aviation wrenches of the same ilk.

[Tony F]

Yes, one came in the tool kit of the SP1000 I bought new in 1979. I can't say it has been a particularly useful tool but for the sake of originality it lives on.

[Sasquatch Jim]

 It is a generic screw adjustable hammer.

[guzzisteve]

It's what is called a monkey wrench and a tire spoon sorta thing on the handle. Some of my friends used to use it to adjust the valves. I got a few laying around here, never used POS tool. The Italian attempt at being Chinese.

[moto]

This was in the Toolkit from a 76 Convert. Is it a Moto Guzzi manufactured wrench or just a generic tool?

Part number 25 90 56 00

I have one. It's obviously an OEM Guzzi part. I think the OP's question was more interesting: whether Guzzi actually manufactured it, in its factory. From what I've read, Guzzi did manufacture almost all the parts of its motorcycles up through the 1970s, so it seems entirely reasonable to think it might have made these wrenches. Does anyone know whether they did?

Moto

[moto]

Looking at my own wrench, I find different stampings. One side is stamped Moto Guzzi, and the other is stamped with the same part number as shown by the OP, but partly obscured:









It is clear in the second picture that the machining was completed only after the Moto Guzzi  part number was stamped on. So I conclude that this is a Moto Guzzi manufactured part, from the factory!

Thanks for the interesting question, Ozarquebus.

Moto

[moto]

I may have to eat my words. There is a numeral six stamped up at the head of the wrench:





It turns out the wrench is almost exactly 6 inches long overall. I would have thought an inch marking would be unlikely on a Guzzi-made tool.

Looking more closely at the part number stamping, I see several remnants of the obscured numeral nine (here are two slightly different photos):









Using a 9x hand magnifier, I can't really tell whether the numeral was ground away after the stamping, or the stamping occurred after the machining operation. My guess is still the former, which would suggest Guzzi stamped the 6 on its own wrench during manufacturing because that was then a recognized, standard size, even though an inch measurement. It also seems more likely that the stamping would have been thoughtlessly made where the machined groove needed to be later, rather than being made over an existing groove.

Maybe Chuck should take a look at my wrench. 

Moto

[Tom H]

The "6" is interesting. But....

If you stopped in a hardware store and needed a pipe wrench or Cresent wrench anywhere in the world. Would you ask for a 6" or 8" or would you ask for them in metric?? Also, was there a period in time where it would have been inch only and then changed to metric??

I think the number stamping was done first while doing stamping/forging of the tool. The cut away area was done as part of finishing the tool. Someone in the design department should have corrected this to move the numbers lower.

Tom

[moto]

...

I think the number stamping was done first while doing stamping/forging of the tool. The cut away area was done as part of finishing the tool. Someone in the design department should have corrected this to move the numbers lower.

Tom

As I said, I tend to agree with that conclusion. Here's another detail that I just noticed: The Moto Guzzi stamping on the reverse of the wrench is located below the groove, about a quarter inch further down the handle. It looks a lot like Luigi stamped Moto Guzzi in the correct spot, and then flipped over the wrench and made a mistake with the location of the part number, all before the final machining of the blank. The problem was more likely a human error than a design mistake.

Moto

[n3303j]

Also known as a Ford Wrench as it was part of early Ford tool kits.

[lucky phil]

I may have to eat my words. There is a numeral six stamped up at the head of the wrench:





It turns out the wrench is almost exactly 6 inches long overall. I would have thought an inch marking would be unlikely on a Guzzi-made tool.

Looking more closely at the part number stamping, I see several remnants of the obscured numeral nine (here are two slightly different photos):









Using a 9x hand magnifier, I can't really tell whether the numeral was ground away after the stamping, or the stamping occurred after the machining operation. My guess is still the former, which would suggest Guzzi stamped the 6 on its own wrench during manufacturing because that was then a recognized, standard size, even though an inch measurement. It also seems more likely that the stamping would have been thoughtlessly made where the machined groove needed to be later, rather than being made over an existing groove.

Maybe Chuck should take a look at my wrench. 

Moto

WAY,WAY too much analysis on just about anything out of the Guzzi factory or Italy for that matter. This depth of analysis and reasoning is forlorn for any Italian product.:)

Ciao 

[moto]

?

Your comment makes no sense.

[lucky phil]

?

Your comment makes no sense.

Just commenting on the fact that trying to work out how, when and why a particular Italian product is made, constructed, produced, marketed, etc is generally pointless because with the Italians the logical process is rarely followed. So all the sensible logical practical processes you think they have applied they rarely have. So, they have stamped the P/N over the groove so one of the numbers is almost illegible. Why would you do that? Why stamp it there? Pointless even trying to work it out. Same applies to dozens of things all over an Italian bike and inside the engine. I've gave up on the Italian "why" and "how" and their process years ago.

Ciao   

[jacksonracingcomau]

I’m with LP on this, without insider knowledge it’s just guessing
BUT, bit of trivia Merkan’s prob don’t know

It was the Italians who gave us inches and miles in the first place, AFAIK my people had no universal measuring system before those pesky Romans came.
It’s lasted pretty well, measuring in French is a pretty recent thing, even the Frogs can’t measure wheels in their own system, not really surprising tools get stamped in English (Roman ) in Italy
Would be conclusive if it were stamped V1

[moto]

....with the Italians the logical process is rarely followed.

If you really
believe what you wrote, you're a fool to ride a Guzzi.

I believe Guzzis are on the whole well engineered, which is as clear evidence of logical process as could be asked for.

Moto

[lucky phil]

If you really
believe what you wrote, you're a fool to ride a Guzzi.

I believe Guzzis are on the whole well engineered, which is as clear evidence of logical process as could be asked for.

Moto

Why? That's the interesting part, correcting all the original engineering shortcomings. Besides you can have something that's well engineered but totally illogical in design and concept. There was zero logic in Guzzi building the MGS-01 I can tell you. Hardly any made, no profit, not road legal, no racing class of any consequence to race it in. Reasonably engineered though.
History is littered with well engineered but illogical products actually.
   

Ciao

[moto]

<sigh>

We were talking about the production (engineering, manufacturing) of a wrench, and whether there was any logic to it. Then you change the to the "logic" of marketing, a completely different topic.

If you want to be right in your own mind, at any cost, there's no stopping you. I need this a good deal less than you, I think.

Moto

[Tom H]

Children....Play Nice.

This was a fun topic. Contemplating why a wrench was made how it was. Please, let's keep it that way.

Tom

[moto]

Thanks for your admonition.

Continuing my inquiry, I have decided I must eat my words after all. The wrench was not created in the Guzzi factory I now think. It's a standard "bicycle wrench" of a pattern dating from the late 19th century, with Guzzi markings stamped on it.


Here is a description of very similar wrenches from the 1890's:





Note that the description calls the tapered end a tire tool lever (i.e., iron). This feature and a short overall length, together with the monkey wrench head, seem to define this type of bicycle wrench. There are many similar such wrenches for sale from the period. I haven't found the exact Guzzi model under another name, yet.

The puzzling numeral 6 on the head suggests a US or maybe British Commonwealth manufacturer. Most of the wrenches I found for sale were US-made, even on the UK ebay. 


Recapping how I got to this new conclusion: I noticed that my interpretation of the groove was probably incorrect. I had thought that it was added late in the process of making the tool so that it might have removed part of the stamping of the part number. But the thickness of metal between the centers of the grooves on either side of the wrench handle is constant throughout its length, suggesting the groove was first cut in the entire blank before the end of the handle was tapered. If that interpretation is correct, the stamping of Moto Guzzi and the part number would have to have been done after the groove was already there. That would remove the argument that the stamping occurred before the completion of the tool, and therefore remove my best argument that Moto Guzzi made the tool.

That conclusion and the puzzling stamped numeral six on the 6-in wrench led me to look for wrenches like this one on the internet. I wondered whether some English or US-made wrench had been modified by Gucci to have a tapered end.

Instead I quickly found that this kind of wrench is called a bicycle wrench and that many examples of similar wrenches are available on eBay.

The simplest explanation is that Guzzi ordered runs of unbranded wrenches from an established manufacturer and stamped them in-house. My wrench was stamped over the groove by mistake.

I try to persist until I find reasonable answers, even though I may not be the sharpest tool in the box!

Moto

Some examples of similar wrenches for sale:


6" bicycle wrench with "driver end" -- really a  typical bicycle tire iron end:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bicycle-Wrench-Shifter-Adjustable-6-inch-Driver-End-USA-103-Antique/124308319517?hash=item1cf15a6d1d:g:rlcAAOSwZxZegurC


A somewhat similar looking end on another bicycle wrench:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-Billings-Spencer-Adjustable-Bicycle-Wrench-5-1-4-1-1-6-Capacity-EXC/193730836524?hash=item2d1b41f82c:g:coUAAOSwxKBfnIdB


Antique Vintage  6" Iver Johnson Bicycle Motorcycle Adjustable Wrench:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-Vintage-6-Iver-Johnson-Bicycle-Motorcycle-Adjustable-Wrench/402525202310?hash=item5db85f2786:g:diAAAOSw7VpfncF~

[ozarquebus]

The design of a monkey wrench like this is so old and common that its eminent domain design could be copied directly without any threat of patent infringement. This might explain the roughness of the casting. The mold for the casting was probably a copy of a copy of a copy... Earlier antique examples are probably a bit finer.
 I don't think most manufacturers of vehicles placed much emphasis on fine tools in their kit, even though those BMW Heyco tools are very nice and Mercedes tools are pretty.

[moto]

The design of a monkey wrench like this is so old and common that its eminent domain design could be copied directly without any threat of patent infringement. This might explain the roughness of the casting. The mold for the casting was probably a copy of a copy of a copy... Earlier antique examples are probably a bit finer.
 I don't think most manufacturers of vehicles placed much emphasis on fine tools in their kit, even though those BMW Heyco tools are very nice and Mercedes tools are pretty.

All good points. I carry a BMW kit for my T3 and agree about those Heyco tools.

Having now looked at at least a couple of hundred pictures of antique bicycle wrenches yesterday, I would observe that the wrench in question is particularly robust compared to most I saw.

If the casting comes from a second or third generation mold (which I agree is possible) do you think this makes it more or less likely that the wrench was made by Guzzi? (That was your original question, after all.)

My own opinion is that Guzzi would have done a marginally better job, at least. They could have added their part number to the mold as they commonly did on other parts, for example. It still looks to me like a wrench manufactured by someone else and stamped by Guzzi, but maybe there is no way to know with certainty.

Moto