General thoughts on working on Guzzis v Nortons

[Scout63]

Having just finished re-assembling my v50 after a clutch job I have some random thoughts on working on Guzzis vs. my ‘72 Commando

I love working with metric tools on the Guzzis vs. SAE and Whitworth confusion on the Norton
The Guzzis seem overbuilt vs. randomly built for the Norton
I’d much rather pull a Norton clutch.
Norton aluminum parts are a pleasure to handle and polish up so easily
The Guzzis lend themselves to much dreaming about different tanks, seats, pipes, etc. while the Norton has to be just the way it left the factory.
Guzzi lower frame rails are nice compared to wrestling engines and gearboxes into isolastic engine plates.
Norton parts seem a bit less expensive - (maybe not true).
Negative earth electrics are nice on the Guzzis.
Some Guzzi Bosch parts are interchangeable with my /5 parts stockpiles. Absolutely nothing on the Norton interchanges except possibly tires and tubes.
Guzzi heads and cylinders are nicely accessible.
Norton engines and gearboxes are light and easy to handle, and simple to work on.
There’s something very satisfying about assembling a shaft bike. It seems more substantial and lined up.
Getting to and dealing with Norton counter sprockets and final drive chains is maddening.

I’m staying far away from riding and aesthetic comparisons since those rabbit holes are pretty subjective and well hashed.

[oldbike54]

 Good comparison 

 Dusty

[Muzz]

Sounds about right.

[Tusayan]

Working on them just reminds us of what they are, which I think is one of the pleasures of working on any bike.

Nortons are 1930s technology at best, very poor engineering to meet the challenges of the 1970s, but certainly made from nice material by people who wanted to do something good but had no money, positioned by their brainless masters into pulling every possible $ £ etc from something that was on planned descent, with no intent to remain in business.  So many sad stories ensued, Peter Williams and JPL bikes being one desperately sad attempt to bring Norton into the modern world.

Guzzi was the conversely the product of an innovative guy and better ownership, mixing tradition with innovation, and fueled by hiring clever people like Carcano, Todero and Tonti and letting them do their thing.  The UK industry had a few smart people but in general the Italians at Guzzi were better educated, better funded and produced better designs at any time after the 1940s.

Better ownership plus higher educated engineers equals better bikes and staying in business another 30 years, before Piaggio ended the Guzzi tradition and made it a ‘brand’ not a company and a philosophy.

Long term, Carlo Guzzi’s vision did at least perpetuate his name and the memory of his ideas into the 21st century.

[Dave Swanson]

A agree with all.

A pair of 1974 850s!

[blackcat]

There are pro’s and con’s to both bikes.

In terms of parts supply, Andover Norton is supplying most Norton parts, especially Commando parts for very reasonable amounts of money and I can get every part for my 68 Commando except the Fastback tank, but that is probably just a question of time. I almost never order from the USA or Canadian parts suppliers as they are more expensive than Andover and they are buying the same parts from Andover so why go through the middleman for the same parts? Compared to Guzzi, the parts quest is more difficult for certain items. As an example, I couldn’t buy and have delivered within a week a brand new front fender for a 93-1000S but I can buy a brand new front fender for a 68 Norton and it’s a special fender in terms of the fact that it is narrower than later fenders and was only used for about one year. And it is a quality fender for a little over $120 bucks. The last time I found and tried to buy a front fender for the 1000S was about 4 years ago on eBay,and I stopped bidding on the NOS part when it hit $800 bucks.

This isn’t an across the board statement as some Commando frames have tabs for certain things(as Guzzi frames)  but if I wanted to change my Fastback to a Roadster,etc. it’s just a question of cash.

Yes, there are some maddening British issues with a Norton but once sorted they are an enjoyable and reliable ride.




I restored the 76 Lemans this year, couldn’t source the early foot brackets which do not have boot shields. There were a pair on eBay in Japan for like $400 bucks which I failed to buy and that was about 2 years ago, finally purchased another later set and ground down the mounting tabs for the boot shields which I really didn’t want to do but there wasn’t another option. 

[steven c]

 Someone once said along these lines , "a Norton may be faster but a Guzzi will get you there quicker" .

[chuck peterson]

https://hartford.craigslist.org/mcd/d/higganum-1975-norton-850-commando/7242107126.html

Good coverage of the right bits and pieces to take care of during a long term relationship

[jumpmaster]

https://hartford.craigslist.org/mcd/d/higganum-1975-norton-850-commando/7242107126.html

Good coverage of the right bits and pieces to take care of during a long term relationship

IMO, quite a bit overpriced for the condition it is in cosmetically, even if ALL the mechanical/electrical weak points of the Norton have been brought up to snuff.  The description doesn't lead me to conclude that is true.  A nice bike, but there are a fair number around and for sale in various parts of the US that are as good, or better, for a lower asking price.  I could be way off the mark on this bike, but I'm always a little skeptical of an old bike with a new or relatively new paint job but no apparent effort was made to "pretty up" even the easily done other parts of the bike.

Back to the OP original question, my personal experience on Guzzi vs. Norton of the same vintage is that the Norton is a sweeter ride, but the wrenching:riding ratios strongly favor the Guzzi.

[LesP]

I can only go by personal findings.
Neither bike has much in common besides many were left to rot in fields (Moto Guzzi's) or at the back of barns/sheds/garages perhaps due to some minor mechanical problem.

One thing was confirmed to me, butcher owner mechanics were not fussy about brands.
The brand then got a somewhat undeserved reputation.





You know its a rocky road when experts of 40 + years almost say, tighten the fasteners with whatever will fit on them until you pass wind.
I prefer a torque wrench but no wonder there are 50 years of myth in general with Commando's alone.

[Scout63]

+1 on the torque wrench Les. I could almost live without a shop manual if I had a good forum and a complete torque table.

[Tusayan]

my personal experience on Guzzi vs. Norton of the same vintage is that the Norton is a sweeter ride, but the wrenching:riding ratios strongly favor the Guzzi.

The latter point is certainly true, but I’d have a hard time agreeing that for example Commando handling is anywhere near the same level as a V7 Sport or (especially) an early LeMans made the same year.  Featherbed Nortons handle a lot better than a Commando, nice steering, but in the riding experience are let down by horrible braking performance as well as annoying vibration. 

[jumpmaster]

The latter point is certainly true, but I’d have a hard time agreeing that for example Commando handling is anywhere near the same level as a V7 Sport or (especially) an early LeMans made the same year.  Featherbed Nortons handle a lot better than a Commando, nice steering, but in the riding experience are let down by horrible braking performance as well as annoying vibration.

I don't have any experience riding a V7 Sport or a LeMans, but keeping in mind that I have a 76 y.o. body w/back issues to contend with, I'd have to say that I'm sure I wouldn't be able to ride any of those models for long enough to make a decent handling comparison!  I do know that my 75 Norton handles somewhat quicker than my Mille and much quicker than my Eldorado 850 (of course!) and has better engine response than either, but I can ride any of the 3 for several hours without feeling crippled at the end of the ride.  Maybe I have Popeye forearms, but I've never felt that my Norton's front brakes were at all weak & the rear brake is at least as good as my Mille's and is as good as the tire traction will allow.  Perceived vibration isn't a significant issue on a Commando with well-adjusted isolastics, at least at semi-legal speeds, although it is an issue with keeping all the nuts & bolts on the bike tight.  My Guzzis, however, win the wrenching:riding ratio contest hands-down.  It is easier to get at a Norton transmission or clutch than one on a Guzzi, but that is countered by the ease of working on a Guzzi top end, as well as not needing to have wrenches in 3 different size standards (Whitworth, metric, & American Standard) to fit all the different fasteners on the bike - not to mention that Norton in some cases used different sized nuts/bolts for the same part serving the same function but on different sides of the bike.

Sorry, a long answer to a short comment.

[DesertPilot]

One big reason I started thinking about Guzzis was that, "Whoa, look!   The cylinders and heads are right out there where you can reach them without having to spend three hours pulling the frigging fuel tank and more!  And hey... tappets and rocker arms!  The way the gods meant mankind to adjust vales!" thing.   

Though I'll admit I was also hoping the new Norton Atlases (Atlii?  Atilae?  Attilas?  What is the plural of 'atlas' anyway?) might show up around here someday...

[huub]

  My Guzzis, however, win the wrenching:riding ratio contest hands-down. 

exactly that drove me from having a norton commando as a daily transport to riding guzzi's.
i bought a old guzzi to run over the winter , to avoid running my nice freshly rebuilt 1972 750 commando on salted roads.
turned out the guzzi was as reliable as a anvil, and i could do all kind of interesting things during the weekend, instead of repairing the norton.

when spring came i continued riding the guzzi , i still am.
the commando is still in the back of the shed , where it has been for over 20 years, might be a nice retirement project ....

[oldbike54]

One big reason I started thinking about Guzzis was that, "Whoa, look!   The cylinders and heads are right out there where you can reach them without having to spend three hours pulling the frigging fuel tank and more!  And hey... tappets and rocker arms!  The way the gods meant mankind to adjust vales!" thing.   

Though I'll admit I was also hoping the new Norton Atlases (Atlii?  Atilae?  Attilas?  What is the plural of 'atlas' anyway?) might show up around here someday...

 Nortons Atlas ?

 Dusty

[SED]

Enjoyed the comparisons. 

My progression was BSA 441, Enfield Bullet and Ariel 500 so by the time I got to the LMIII it was like working on a car.      

Drain plug rather than "sump plate"
Spin on oil filter (w hoseclamp!) vs. none   
Easy adjust valves vs. pull tank or fumble in the dark
Easy clean aluminum wheels
Electric start!
Shaft drive 
Disk brakes   
Hydraulic brakes   
Turnsignals   
Modern metallurgy   
Plastic! 

The 1937 bacon slicer is another era:
- sand cast aluminum is soft, porous and NOT low expansion - the case edges must be peened over to hold the bearings in place! 
- clutching and acceleration tend to push the bearings out of their bores rather than seat them (so your peening must be good!)
- felt seals
- bolt together Erector Set frame
- amazingly weak front brake is smaller than the rear (designed not to skid in mud?)

[LesP]

+1 on the torque wrench Les. I could almost live without a shop manual if I had a good forum and a complete torque table.

I take what I read on the internet with a pinch of salt, some of the manuals are the same (ie the Norton manual saying to torque the clutch nut to some 70 ft/lbs until you risk popping the rear circlip)

I read on the internet you have to put a hose clamp on the Moto Guzzi oil filter ?
Instead I machined the sump so the filter actually had some thread holding it.

Clattery valves are normal it said, I chose the push rods carefully, no more clatter.

Nortons are little different but like many old bikes, you have the choice of slapping them together (with shiny paint jobs and chrome) or taking your time addressing things that can be fine tuned for reliabilty and peace of mind.

Like the rods and pistons, even NOS AE pistons out of the box need some prep just like the rods.





I did drop around $4.5k on a new cylinder head along with KW valve train parts and Amal Premiers, both of those needed work out of the box so little has changed.
Old bikes are not for everybody.

[LesP]

The engines are both easy enough to work on if you have the needed tools and specialised tools for disassembly.

Both seem to have potential issues with the camshaft followers, the difference is a new set of four for a Norton are around AU$1000 and then you have to check the follower bore to follower clearance to avoid a 'drama.

Kiibblewhite make parts for both.

The gear box is fine but like the Moto Guzzi can be shimmed (First gear on the Norton for the engagement and layshaft axial float)

There are a ton of things than can be addressed or fine tuned, if you elect not to for what ever reason don't whine, fix it or sell it to someone who will.

I think anyone could fit the rear wheel along with a new brake hub sprocket carrier, could the same person shim a new very expensive Moto Guzzi final drive ?

I would rate them both enjoyable to work on mechanically but very different.

[LesP]

More Norton.
One of the problems is, who can work on your Norton ?

Lets say some previous owner did whatever it took to corrugate both the camshaft journal and bush (lack of oil ?) to the point both need replacement
Now what ?
Take it to some shop that does not exist or do it yourself having no choice.

One two piece 7/8" line reamer to do both bushes..




One free spinning replacement camshaft with the correct running clearance along with modified oil feeds.


Its not for everyone but you get to learn new things as an elderly person.

Want to stabilise the rear swingarm spindle, just machine some cradle clamps to push on the spindle itself.





Having both a prepped Norton Commando and a Moto Guzzi Eldorado, priceless.

[Dave Swanson]

More Norton.
One of the problems is, who can work on your Norton ?

Lets say some previous owner did whatever it took to corrugate both the camshaft journal and bush (lack of oil ?) to the point both need replacement
Now what ?
Take it to some shop that does not exist or do it yourself having no choice.

One two piece 7/8" line reamer to do both bushes..




One free spinning replacement camshaft with the correct running clearance along with modified oil feeds.


Its not for everyone but you get to learn new things as an elderly person.

Want to stabilise the rear swingarm spindle, just machine some cradle clamps to push on the spindle itself.





Having both a prepped Norton Commando and a Moto Guzzi Eldorado, priceless.

Love the cradle clamps!!!   

[Mr Pootle]

I shared a Dominator 88 with my father in my teens. He rode it to work and I had it in the evening. At weekends it was whoever got to it first. If it needed work he did the wrenching while I went out wenching.
In the 90s I had an EL400. The electrics were a mess. Neither the indicators nor the electric start ever worked properly. It was unexciting.
And then, in 2016, with money I got under his will, I bought my V7, to make up for the Zigolo he'd bought when I was 14, telling me it would be mine when I was 16, and which he sold when I was 15.
I can't decide whether the 88 or the V7 was my favourite, and whether my 1954 Velocette MSS, owned for a few years in the 2000s outclassed them both.

[SED]

Les - your machine work is gorgeous!

Great story Mr Pootle.  Got any pictures of the MSS?

[Mr Pootle]

Les - your machine work is gorgeous!

Great story Mr Pootle.  Got any pictures of the MSS?

[oldbike54]

 Always wanted a Velocette . Now the effort to kick one to life would wreck my right knee .

 Lovely motorbike mate .

 Dusty

[Rough Edge racing]

 Nice photos of the Norton engine above.
 I have little faith in  60 year old aluminum connecting rods with unknown history..My Triumph race turds have aftermarket seel or alloy rods.
  The current 61 BSA  A10 has R&R aluminum rods....$450 ain't cheap but a lot less than a broken rod sawing the cases in half..

[Cal3Me]

I agree with most of the comments ,,,,,but my biggest fear in owning either one of these bikes is the PO and you know who you all are .

I have had several of each of these bikes and still do but


regretful
 some of the things owners do to them are scary. Just read a guzzi tips book for example. :>)
But no one beats the Norton girls ,,,,,
 

[blackcat]

I agree with most of the comments ,,,,,but my biggest fear in owning either one of these bikes is the PO and you know who you all are .

The guy I bought my Norton from said he he had some work done to the head. Of course i could see it was leaking but when I removed the head it was quickly apparent that someone had taken a belt sander to the head. It was toast. I should have kept it or at least taken a picture of the carnage but this was 25 years ago.