First tonti crabbing

[lucian]

Have had the dragging clutch issue intermittently on the LMIII since I've owned it.  With winter here I finally found some time to have a look. I must say the tonti frame bike is a joy to work on.  Everything seems very well thought out to be able to service these bikes without major hassles. Unlike a lot of the newer stuff.  What I found was a pretty notched up center hub. I guess a common issue with the 2mm splines.  The rest of the clutch looks to be in great shape . The friction plates are barely worn at 7.80 mm. I believe they are 8mm when new.  Teeth on all the plates and basket look fine with no perceivable wear or grooving. The springs are all under spec at 27mm +or- 1/2 a mm.  Part of me just wants to throw a new 2mm hub in and new springs and be done but I have.not been able to source one.  I've decided to bite the bullet and replace the plates and hub with the SD Tec 4mm set up. Will replace all the main seals in tranny and engine case and give the cam plug the  jb weld . I suppose I should get a through out bearing along with the double o ring outer body upgrade. New flywheel bolts and locks , springs I think that's about it. So far so good , at least it all came apart without any seized bolts or studs, always a plus!   I know many here have BTDT so please let me know what else I should be doing while I'm at it. 
a few pics Cheers

[jwinwi]

Congratulations on doing it yourself! Yes, the Tonti frame Guzzis are a joy to work on. FWIW, I always replace the Intermediate plate because of the uneven wear/heat marks on the old ones. Never really had a problem with the cheap ones but the last couple clutches have gotten the more expensive one from MG Cycle. The cheaper ones are stamped and the more expensive ones are laser cut so (in theory) flatter and with a tooth profile that more closely matches the void in the flywheel.  Used to replace springs every time but did not the last time. As long as they are all close to the same length many here have said re-use them. They are not compressed very far when the clutch is engaged... or is it disengaged?

[lucian]

Thanks for the reply,  here's the kit I'm thinking about.
https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=4766
 The Ram clutch sounds interesting but I've read mixed opinions on longevity with the sintered plates.

[guzzisteve]

My LM3 was bad at 15Kmi, My Cali2 I got to 30K just cause I could hold the brake w/sidecar rig. By then they had deep splines & auto timing chain tens.

[lucian]

My LM3 was bad at 15Kmi, My Cali2 I got to 30K just cause I could hold the brake w/sidecar rig. By then they had deep splines & auto timing chain tens.

Do you mean with the ram clutch? Or original two plate?

[moto-uno]

 Unless you know someone that's used the very latest RAM clutch , let me say that the originals were absolute crap !
Original friction plate was replaced within 400 km , the bell housing was as though a forest fire of ash was caked in it .
The 2nd lasted less than a 1000km before acting up . Finally got a truck ( that's right ) shop to attend to attaching and
shaving some real friction material to the plate and now it's a treat , faster revving and good shifting and neutral finding.
  You are so fortunate to have the flywheel splines look as new . I've got the Sd Tec kit from MG (in another Moto-Guzzi)
and it's fine , do not look for another 2mm spline (Please , there's a reason they finally changed them). Looks like you've
got the rest of it under control :) . Peter

[lucian]

One other observation on disassembly.  I always measure and mark everything i can before I take it apart. Mainly because my memory is about as long as my , you know.  I noticed that one stub axle on the swingarm had slightly more protrusion than the other. One was 1/4 in. and the other 3/8 in. I recorded which was which but shouldn't they be the same when all is said and done?  TIA

[radguzzi]

lucian,
I have the tools for installing the clutch if you need unless you are going with the Ram, then I got nothin'... 

The centering tool, 2 or 4mm, the tool for holding the flywheel in place while you torque the flywheel bolts, a bolt kit for removing and replacing the rear main seal housing, the driver for setting the seal at just the right depth If you are doing the rear main seal.  If it looks as if there was leaking form any of those components.

I would also replace the breather gasket, as you mention, smear a sealing compound (JB Weld) over the rear cam plate.  And, if you do R & R the rear main seal housing, seal the bottom two bolt holes as they are through holes into the block.

Be careful with the intermediate plate, it can become a potato chip quickly if it is caught and not aligned properly.

Lemme know if you need the tools.

Oh, the swingarm lugs.  You want to center the swingarm and not over tighten one side or the other.  You will be able to "Feel" the center when it goes back together.  Simply "Just " load the bearings while well greased.


One last thing about wear...  The clutch and hub splines wear prematurely when the clutch is pulled in while at a stop light among other reasons of course but that is a heavy hitter. 
Find neutral while at a long stop.
 

Best,
Rob

[guzzisteve]

Do you mean with the ram clutch? Or original two plate?

I replaced stock bad for sintered bronze, dual racing, it's 1/2lb lighter than stock, also new 2mm hub. No deep spline till 93. I have had real good service from my clutch, 35K hard mi. It did do some wear on metal though, ring & pressure plate, to be expected w/racing products. It sounds like a Ducati when I pull in clutch. I'll most likely do a deep spline clutch when I get it on the road, only been 14yrs. No hurry.

[lucian]

lucian,
I have the tools for installing the clutch if you need unless you are going with the Ram, then I got nothin'... 

The centering tool, 2 or 4mm, the tool for holding the flywheel in place while you torque the flywheel bolts, a bolt kit for removing and replacing the rear main seal housing, the driver for setting the seal at just the right depth If you are doing the rear main seal.  If it looks as if there was leaking form any of those components.

I would also replace the breather gasket, as you mention, smear a sealing compound (JB Weld) over the rear cam plate.  And, if you do R & R the rear main seal housing, seal the bottom two bolt holes as they are through holes into the block.

Be careful with the intermediate plate, it can become a potato chip quickly if it is caught and not aligned properly.

Lemme know if you need the tools.

Oh, the swingarm lugs.  You want to center the swingarm and not over tighten one side or the other.  You will be able to "Feel" the center when it goes back together.  Simply "Just " load the bearings while well greased.


One last thing about wear...  The clutch and hub splines wear prematurely when the clutch is pulled in while at a stop light among other reasons of course but that is a heavy hitter. 
Find neutral while at a long stop.
 

Best,
Rob

Thanks for this Rob, will keep you posted appreciate the kind offer and advise. Question, do i need to pull the  carrier to just replace the rear main seal? I was in hopes of just winding a panhead screw into it and yarning it out of there from the rear. 

[moto-uno]

 The screw may well work , but I'd suggest a seal puller , basically a thin ridged hook on a lever , they work great on large seals
(Snap-on , Bluepoint # YA105) and won't damage seal surface on crank or bearing carrier . Peter

[wymple]

I got my 1984 Cal II with a little over 50K on it. The clutch was dragging some and at 58K I had it replaced with whatever upgrade was available back in the early 90's. R&K Cycle, Ron Tinkham took care of it. Never had any trouble with afterwards. Now, over 25 years later, I had to pull the trans for a very Micky Mouse little problem (long story) so I told Ron to put in another new clutch as the 2nd was showing some signs of age even tho it worked fine. The new clutch is a little more abrupt, but it works fine,  I actually preferred the last one. Both dual plate clutches, don't know who made them. And a little bragging, at the age of 37 that trans inside was like brand new.

[lucian]

Seals are all out,  hook tip on slide hammer   Got a whole lot of degreasing and cleanup to do while waiting on parts all good . Thanks for the replies, gotta love this place !

[radguzzi]

Thanks for this Rob, will keep you posted appreciate the kind offer and advise. Question, do i need to pull the  carrier to just replace the rear main seal? I was in hopes of just winding a panhead screw into it and yarning it out of there from the rear.

The screw may well work , but I'd suggest a seal puller , basically a thin ridged hook on a lever , they work great on large seals
(Snap-on , Bluepoint # YA105) and won't damage seal surface on crank or bearing carrier . Peter

lucian,
Ya know, I have never pulled out that particular seal with a sheet metal screw or two, I have done others but not the rear main.

Two thoughts, if you are certain that the rear main is leaking or even seeping then yeah, yank it. You need to very careful not to score the crank.  And as Peter mentions, use a seal puller.  I have one too.

Now, if the housing/carrier is suspect of leaking from behind, then that paper gasket will need to be replaced hence the need to pull that off as well.
That is the component with the two bottom bolts that I talked about earlier.

If neither are leaking, let that be your guide.

rad__

[lucian]

Thanks again Rad, the only oil i see  in the bell housing seems to be gear oil . The front tranny seal is definitely leaking . I thought it would be wise to do the rear main for good measure as its 30+ years young.  Question on the swingarm u joint carrier bearing. There is gear oil weeping from the trans output shaft seal as well. The u joint and bearing feel fine and I will be replacing the seal.  Is the  carrier bearing sealed or does it need to be pulled and re packed w grease. I can only assume it was well lubed by the gear oil sitting atop of it which hopefully will no longer be the case. Additionally, the u joint pulled easily out of the bearing inner race but there is no indication that it had spun within the race.  I read where this should be a press fit, should it be re assembled with some bearing retainer goo?  Appreciate all the help here.   

[radguzzi]

lucian,
The U joint can be a sliding fit, with the entire train assembled the shaft and bearing will be sufficiently loaded. 

These are the tools that I have, left to right;

Clutch alignment tool, 2 or 4mm, Clutch hub ringnut tool, Rear main seal installation tool, 2mm Clutch hub and bolt, used for the old fashioned method of alignment, Top, Flywheel, ring gear holding tool.
I do not have a clutch hub holding tool, I improvise...

Cheers,
Rob




 

[Kiwi Dave]

When I crabbed the frame on my 2003 EV Touring to replace the crappy clutch, my bike wouldn't start when I reassembled it.

Turned out that the spark leads were pulled out the the coils just enough to prevent spark at the plugs, but not enough to be visually obvious.  If yours doesn't start after reassembly, this might be the reason.

[lucian]

lucian,
The U joint can be a sliding fit, with the entire train assembled the shaft and bearing will be sufficiently loaded. 

These are the tools that I have, left to right;

Clutch alignment tool, 2 or 4mm, Clutch hub ringnut tool, Rear main seal installation tool, 2mm Clutch hub and bolt, used for the old fashioned method of alignment, Top, Flywheel, ring gear holding tool.
I do not have a clutch hub holding tool, I improvise...

Cheers, Thanks Rob. I'm pretty sure I have everything I need with the exception of the seal installer. I do have a lathe and plan on turning one up out of hard wood. I measured the recession of the original seal at just shy of one mm. Is that about the offset on the face of your tool?  Seems a lot of depth to the seal housing so I imagine if you don't go bottoming it out against the bearing you should be ok. 
Rob

[lucian]

When I crabbed the frame on my 2003 EV Touring to replace the crappy clutch, my bike wouldn't start when I reassembled it.

Turned out that the spark leads were pulled out the the coils just enough to prevent spark at the plugs, but not enough to be visually obvious.  If yours doesn't start after reassembly, this might be the reason.

Thats sounds like something I might have done. I think I was overly cautious and unhooked a lot of things I probably could have left in place, I can now see the time advantage to crabbing vs pulling the whole lump and it certainly saved me some space in my small garage keeping the frame where it is. At this point the only thing I have left connected is the altenator wires and the front pivot bolt.  I am glad I finally decided to resolve the clutch issue, it will be a lot more pleasurable to ride with a predictable lever.  Also I,ve found a bunch of things that were monkeyed with or disregarded by PO's. The list is on going but so  far:
- ball valve for oil breather MIA
- breathe lines from bottom of airbox to front frame spigot and transmission vent tMIA
-both input and output tranny seals leaking
- conical seals on clutch push rod leaking
- swing arm seals hard as a rock and bearings crudded up but salvageable
-  many corroded electrical connectors and a hack job of the dyna ignition wiring
 -  Battery tray need refinishing
 -  many fasteners starting to corrode in unseen places ,
I'm sure there will be more to come but for an almost forty year old machine it is in remarkable condition, just a little neglected in places. Will be nice have her back in proper shape
Appreciate all the replies    Dave

[lucian]

Progress, got my homemade main seal tool done. A left over scrap of 4x4 ironwood , very dense hard stuff to turn especially on end grain. Ought to be plenty rugged for its purpose. A few lathe pics
first turn outside dia. to size



then a 2mm deep shoulder the down to the outer seal dia.



Then bore the 13mm hole for bolt



next turn the recess for the crank nose



And then part it off at 1 1/4 long for a 2 in bolt to work





Now flip it end for end and turn recess for a flat washer and a camphor on the edge to pretty it up



Done


now back to the greasy stuff

[Tom]

 

[Chuck in Indiana]

  Yeah, that'll be sturdy enough.

[guzzisteve]

About the Ironwood, I have some Brazilian hardwood. This is the rosewood looking stuff and I drilled a hole to make a pot for soldering cable ends. The stuff don't burn at all, hard like concrete or steel. They put it on decks & docks. Massaranduba is what it is, I worked w/it for 3yrs along with the other flavors from Brazil.

[lucian]

Yep, that's the stuff  Up here its labeled Cambara Iron Wood and it eats carbide sawblades for breakfast.  Standard countersinks for common woodscrew sizes wont work in it and will probably break most of them off. Not good on HSS lathe chisels either.   Had to re sharpen that parting chisel about five times for this one small turning. It does hold up outside for decking ect. Part of has to wonder where it's all coming from because they are selling a crapload of it everywhere.

[radguzzi]

Wow Dave,
You did a wicked good job on that seal pusher, prolly harder than the aluminum number that I had made.

Awesome work on the clutch, how to go.

rad__

[lucian]

Thanks Rad, My Dad taught me at a young age.  " Never borrow a mans tools or wife , But if you do , make sure you return his tools!

[Tkelly]

Clutch on 84 SP grabs abruptly as I let it engage.No problem disengaging.Probabl y original around80000 miles on bike.What do I need to replace or adjust?

[lucian]

Likely a worn center hub like mine was but with 80,000 miles it will likely need the plates and springs replaced as well. Hopefully the flywheel will be ok . Hard to know everything until you get in there,  Lots of seals and things to address while doing the clutch. And then there's the rear drive , U joints, center bearing, swing arm bearings ect. ect.  No time like the present!  Lots of help available here should you decide to tackle it. 

[lucian]

Parts starting to trickle in.  Meanwhile some fresh paint and clearcoat on a few plastic bits.  Had a hard time finding the eight, 8x1.25x13mm bolts for ring gear , I did order some 16mm long ones in grade 8.8 with some extra thick schnorr washers, they may protrude the back side of the flywheel slightly but doesn't look to be a problem. 12 mm long are available but I don't like going shorter in this case.  Maybe I should just re use the originals?  Got new for the flywheel . Got most of the degreasing done along with the jb weld on the cam plug.  Trying to post progress as I go along and am grateful to any and all suggestions.  I have a new found respect for the amount of time it takes just to chase down the littlest things to do this stuff. Even with everything on line now it still takes a lot of time. It's nice that most everything you need for these older bikes is still available at multiple sources.