2007 Norge lean cold start

[Abbienormal]

I purchased this a year ago with 10,000 miles (currently 16,000+) and gave it a full tune up, cleaned the stepper motor, new tires, etc.  It has run fine until my last ride of just over 2,000 miles in 5 days.  On the final morning upon startup it acted like I did not use the choke, if it had one.  Once warm all is fine.  I have since sprayed carb cleaner into the hose leading to the stepper motor while running but no difference. The first cleaning I did while the airbox was off and a ton of crap flowed into the injector bodies where I caught it with a rag and all ran fine. Any other suggestions? I thought maybe bad gas but I have refilled over half a tank since then and no difference.  I plan to put some injector cleaner in it next fill up as it is low right now but I was doing that previously just not on that trip. Always premium fuel.

I figure this has been discussed but I can't find the search feature. 

[guzzisteve]

I was just trying to look one up to see how much a plastic stepper is, that is what you need. 07's had metal ones, you can delete it & just put a .030" feeler gauge on throttle body stop for a choke.

[Huzo]

My ‘07 Norge does exactly the same thing. If I leave it for a week or so, it cranks for 10 seconds before firing.
Then after that it’s fine, but the longer I leave it the more the symptom persists.
Will watch this one closely.

[Bulldog9]

I purchased this a year ago with 10,000 miles (currently 16,000+) and gave it a full tune up, cleaned the stepper motor, new tires, etc.  It has run fine until my last ride of just over 2,000 miles in 5 days.  On the final morning upon startup it acted like I did not use the choke, if it had one.  Once warm all is fine.  I have since sprayed carb cleaner into the hose leading to the stepper motor while running but no difference. The first cleaning I did while the airbox was off and a ton of crap flowed into the injector bodies where I caught it with a rag and all ran fine. Any other suggestions? I thought maybe bad gas but I have refilled over half a tank since then and no difference.  I plan to put some injector cleaner in it next fill up as it is low right now but I was doing that previously just not on that trip. Always premium fuel.

I figure this has been discussed but I can't find the search feature.

My 1200 Sport and Griso do the same. Have tried for years to figure out the cause including closing both air bleeds, checking gaskets, ports, tank venting, TB balance, valve adjustments, etc. So now I just start the bikes, let them idle for the 3-4 minutes it takes to put on my gear, double check bags, lights, etc, and all is well.

Other than a cold stumble off idle, the bikes run flawlessly and are fine on warm and hot starts.

[Huzo]

Roper suggests in my case with the bike at 225,000 k that the compression will be getting down a bit…
I bet that’s true…
Just part of her charm.

[Huzo]

I’m thinking of hooking up a tube into both adapters for the TB balance and squirting a light spay into the intake on the initial crank.
If it fires, then I know to chase a lean condition cause.

[blackcat]

I disconnected the stepper motor on my 07 sometime around 08 and it's not been a problem, even in cold NY winters. Yes, have to wait a very short amount of time to get warmed up but it's marginal and even less time than all of my other bikes.

[Abbienormal]

Apparently this is more common than I thought.  Guzzisteve says he was looking for a plastic stepper and I see the pricing on used metal ones makes me think I can do without.  Blackcat says he  disconnected the stepper but was that done by removing the hoses or just disconnecting the wiring? Are any codes thrown up?  I may look into it more if I ever have the airbox off again.  A job I do not look forward to.

[guzzisteve]

The plastic stepper has no issues. All the part #'s for it were not found on the AF1 site. Last time I checked, maybe last year, they were over $300. You can't disconnect it or it throws codes & flashes on dash. If you take it out, it gets tied up to be plugged in to harness.
I would not buy another metal one, many threads on this here. But now you know what's up.

[blackcat]

All I did was plug the hoses and leave the wires connected.

[PJPR01]

What are you readings when connecting Guzzidiag?

Throttle position set at?  4.6 to 4.8 hopefully
CO Trim set at?  Measure at warm +60C, starting at 0 as a baseline is good
Idle at cold vs. warm? Has fluctuations or fairly steady?  1100-1200 hopefully

Have you balanced the throttle bodies lately(both at idle and at 3-4K?)

Unlikely to be the cause, but have you also replaced the fuel filter in the tank yet to a metal one, and eliminated the 1/2 plastic/metal version.

Post a video if you can so we can hear it struggle at start up and what it sounds like when warm...

[Abbienormal]

It doesn't really struggle at start up much.  Maybe a couple more revolutions than before.  Just doesn't take the throttle well till warm.  I did balance the throttle bodies.  I do not have Guzzidiag to run the other tests.  The idle is at about 1,200rpm though I will admit it hangs at about 1600 on occasion but a throttle blip and it leaves.  May not do it again for days or at the next stop.  The fuel filter was replaced right after buying the bike when I looked in and saw the 2pc model.

[PJPR01]

Then for sure Guzzidiag is recommended so you can reset TPS after doing the throttle body balance at 3-4k and reset Autolearning parameters as tasks to perform inside Guzzidiag.  Presumably you have a good manometer to balance the TB’s at idle and 3-4k revs…

Sticking idle usually goes away I have found by doing the above tasks…

[Bulldog9]

Then for sure Guzzidiag is recommended so you can reset TPS after doing the throttle body balance at 3-4k and reset Autolearning parameters as tasks to perform inside Guzzidiag.  Presumably you have a good manometer to balance the TB’s at idle and 3-4k revs…

Sticking idle usually goes away I have found by doing the above tasks…

I hope this works for him. I have Guzzi Diag and reset the TPS and learning parameters to no avail in curing the 'not taking throttle when cold" Benefit is the motor runs flawlessly and smooth. Steppers work perfectly.

My EVAP system is disabled on both bikes. On the Griso the vacuum lines are plugged with a ball bearing and check valve was disabled (ran drill bit through it) leaving the rest intact including charcoal canister and vents through it. That is at least how MI explained it to me back in 2015.  On the 1200 Sport, the tank vents old school to below the swing arm pivot, and I ran a new line between the two TB vacuum ports.

I'm retiring this summer and hope to have more time in the future to dig deeper. Always rushing............ ..

[Abbienormal]

My evap system fell off while I was working on it.    The place where the charcoal canister was is a nice spot for an auxiliary fuse box. I took a hose and connected the vacuum ports together.  Same way I did my other 2 Norges with no problems.

I just looked up Guzzidiag and I remember having it for my other Guzzis years ago.  I have to see if I still have the cables and/or if the wireless OBDII connector I used on my cars and the Triumph Tiger will work. This can all wait till I put another about 1,800 miles on it in a week or so.  Then it goes back on the lift for tune up, oil and tires.

I hate electrical stuff on my bikes but I do like ABS.

[Huzo]

What CO trim # do you guys typically run on your 2 VPC Norges ?

[Abbienormal]

I have ordered the connection cable from Lonelec.  I have a bluetooth OBD2 adapter I have used on other vehicles to my laptop.  Does anyone think that will work or where can I get the OBD2 to USB cable that will work.  I tried a search for the described cable in the directions but cannot find an identical match.

[PJPR01]

What CO trim # do you guys typically run on your 2 VPC Norges ?

Mine is set at zero…

[Huzo]

Here’s a video of a stone cold start of my Norge. https://youtu.be/G_zLOuzN9H0?feature=shared
I’m a bit surprised that it started as promptly as it did, it would normally take about 10 seconds after a one week hiatus…
But anyway, there you go.

[Bulldog9]

Here’s a video of a stone cold start of my Norge. https://youtu.be/G_zLOuzN9H0?feature=shared
I’m a bit surprised that it started as promptly as it did, it would normally take about 10 seconds after a one week hiatus…
But anyway, there you go.

Is the issue a cold start issue? I thought the issue was it stalling and not taking throttle without stalling when cold?

[Abbienormal]

"Is the issue a cold start issue? I thought the issue was it stalling and not taking throttle without stalling when cold?"

It is the not taking throttle when started cold.  I watched the video he posted and waited for him to hit the throttle to see if it stumbled but he didn't.  He said that was faster than normal.  Mine starts like that or faster.

As I said, I will give it complete going over after the next ride in a week then see if I can do anything about the problem.  I had completely forgotten about Guzzidiag.  Maybe it will help.  If not then I can live with it by doing the cheats that have been listed.

[Abbienormal]

I went out yesterday and shot some Triflow in the tube to the stepper.  I figure it is either a rotating or linear valve or pin and maybe it was not moving smoothly.  As can be seen it starts right up and accepts the throttle by the end of the video so it doesn't take long to work acceptably.  I'll still hook up Guzzidiag to it but I can live with this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTsXYHS4FS0

[guzzisteve]

For kicks today ran the plastic stepper part # over at TLM, discontinued---so much for CARC bikes.
You can put a petcock in line & make it manual, open petcock when cold, close as rpm comes up.

[Huzo]

My Norge will take throttle when cold but not fully
you need to be a little discerning for a minute or so.
No bad thing, but it is a consideration. I’ll do another when I get home.

[Huzo]

Mine is set at zero…

Ok Paul.

[PJPR01]

I shot a short video yesterday…cold start.

https://youtu.be/SJ7Qr6oEMvI?si=c0XXoVvqb2vn4lGl

[SemperVee]

  My Norge starts like yours does Paul.  Same time lapse whether I use hidden start button (solenoid + battery)  or handlebar button so I know my wiring is just fine from the button.

[John A]

https://youtu.be/BDshMp-bM_0?si=q5wXRhRoKfSAF6fR

More information from the excellent Peter Roper

[Bisbonian]

You can put a petcock in line & make it manual, open petcock when cold, close as rpm comes up.

This is what I did on my 1200 Sport. I only needed to open the valve for starts first thing in the morning and by the time I got moving I shut if off and never worried about it for the rest of the day.

[Pescatore]

https://youtu.be/BDshMp-bM_0?si=q5wXRhRoKfSAF6fR

More information from the excellent Peter Roper

Thank you very much for this video. I had not thought of searching for videos from Peter Roper.
Until now I had only found pictures for the TB balance procedure. This video gives me way more confidence to do that, if needed.