Add oil sight glass

[Juan1]

I’m all for fiddling to make improvements, to a point.  But cutting a hole in your block to install a sight glass is just nuts. 

Move on, or buy a bike with one.  Granted, they’re very convenient.  But stick to your stick.

x2

[Dirk_S]

Just took a worms-eye photo of the V7 II crankcase, centered, and dipstick installed, to see where the dipstick ends. Looks like about 3/4” of distance is still needed before it touches mid point. Stick ends maybe 2mm below the bottom half of the crankcase:







Could certainly be different on a V7 III

[SIR REAL ED]

good mix of opinions.

What I'm taking away from this thread is that some people are confident and comfortable performing relatively minor machining operations on their motorcycles and some people are not.

Probably no doubt due to whatever their past experience has been.

1.  Some have not made many modifications.
2.  Some have made modifications and they have not worked.
3.  Some have made modifications and they have worked.

Thats the big guessing game.  Are options 1, 2, or 3 influencing the commenters, and are the same options going to influence the OP?

Only the Shadow knows for sure.........   

Modifying the old carpentry advice:  "Measure 10 times and drill once!"

[AJ Huff]

Sooooo..... If Guzzis aren't supplied with center stands, why put the effort into checking the oil as if they did? Wouldn't Moto Guzzi say to check the oil with the bike upright and level? I check mine leaning on the side stand.

-AJ

[Bulldog9]

Simple..... Use a stepped bit, drill from the inside leaving a lip, then JB weld the proper sized glass from the inside......


What could go wrong? 


Who checks their oil anyway? 

[Kev m]

Wouldn't Moto Guzzi say to check the oil with the bike upright and level?

On what model did they NOT say that?!?

(They say that on all the smallblock manuals I've read, and I thought theat was true on my big blocks but it's been a decade or so ...)

[Bulldog9]

I recommend filling your bike to the level you want to run. then let it sit on the side stand overnight. In the morning pull the dipstick and mark the oil level with a band of white paint.

Now the bike oil level is inspect able while on the side stand, requiring no assistance or leveling...

This is what I do, and find that for the 1200 Sport, Griso and Stornello that the High Mark for oil on the side stand is just below the 1/2 mark when properly upright.  I do have a CS on the 12S and Stornello though, and none burn any old to speak of other than the Stornello in super hot stop and go summer riding, or long Highway high speed runs.

[AJ Huff]

On what model did they NOT say that?!?

(They say that on all the smallblock manuals I've read, and I thought there was true on my big blocks but it's been a decade or so ...)

I can't find any mention on the California's in the owners manual.

-AJ

[Kev m]

I can't find any mention on the California's in the owners manual.

-AJ

I just downloaded a "California EV 1100" owners manual from Cadre Cycles website.

Here's the text from the oil level checking page:

ENGINE MUST BE WARM TO CHECK ENGINE OIL LEVEL.
NOTE
DO NOT LET THE ENGINE IDLE WITH THE VEHICLE AT STANDSTILL TO WARM UP THE ENGINE
OIL AND REACH THE OPERATING TEMPERATURE OF ENGINE OIL. OIL IS BEST CHECKED
AFTER RUNNING FOR ABOUT 15 KM (10 miles).
• Shut off the engine.

• Keep the vehicle upright with both
wheels on the ground.

• Unscrew and remove the cap with dip-
stick.
• Clean dipstick.
• Refit the cap with dipstick into its hole
without tightening.
• Remove the cap with dipstick.

[Kev m]

I can't find any mention on the California's in the owners manual.

-AJ

And just in case you mean a Call 1400 (also from Cadre's PDFs)

Engine oil
Check
CAUTION
ENGINE MUST BE WARM TO CHECK ENGINE OIL LEVEL.
NOTE
DO NOT LET THE ENGINE IDLE WITH THE VEHICLE AT STANDSTILL TO WARM UP THE ENGINE
OIL AND REACH THE OPERATING TEMPERATURE OF ENGINE OIL. OIL IS BEST CHECKED
AFTER RUNNING FOR ABOUT 15 KM (10 miles).
• Shut off the engine.

• Keep the vehicle upright with both
wheels on the ground.

• Unscrew the filler plug / oil dipstick.
• Remove and clean the oil dipstick.
• Re-insert the oil dipstick without tight-
ening it.
• Remove the oil dipstick again and
check the oil level.
'MAX' = maximum level.
'MIN' = minimum level.
• The oil level is correct when it is close
to the 'MAX' mark. Otherwise, top-up
with engine oil.

[AJ Huff]

I guess it depends on where you download your manual from. I don't see any of that in the owners manual for the California EV on ThisOldTractor. Example, 2002 manual.

-AJ

[Kev m]

I guess it depends on where you download your manual from. I don't see any of that in the owners manual for the California EV on ThisOldTractor. Example, 2002 manual.

-AJ

 

Interesting - let me dig some more.

Looks like 2001-2003 has HORRIBLE WORDING in the OM - much less detailed than the later manuals I was citing.

LUBRICATION
Engine lubrication
Checking the oil level (fig. 23)
Check the crankcase oil level every 500 km; the oil
should reach the «Max» mark on the dipstick «A». If the
oil is below this level, top up with the recommended type
and grade of oil.
N.B. - The oil level check should be carried out
after the engine has run for a few minutes: the
dipstick plug «A» should be screwed up completely.

I always loved that line "screwed up completely" - yup, that probably summarizes it well.

Interestingly enough I have that same OM PDF on file in my old Jackal tech file folder. And the SM specifically says vehicle upright for both the transmission and final drive but DOESN'T mention it under engine oil. So either it was different on some Cali's or it's another case of poorly written Guzzi manuals (I would believe either at this point).

I'm gonna dig further....

HMM - interestingly enough that EV 1100 manual WAS a service manual and not an owner's.

The Cal-Vintage OM on Cadre's sight agrees with what you found AJ - that I assume is the same as I quoted in this text. Doesn't say to.

Checking other service manuals on Cadre's sight:

* B1100 - "upright with the two wheels on the ground"
* B750 - same
* Bellagio (why do they have the Bellagio on their site, weird) - same
* B1200 - same
* G1100 - same
* Nevada - same
* Norge 1200 - same
* Stelvio 1200 MY 11 - same
* Stelvio 4V - same
* Stelvio NTX - same
* V7C - same
* V7II - same
* V9 Bobber/Roamer - same


Interestingly enough, and I've noted this before - the Hemi head smallblocks say dipstick tightened, most/all of the later-model Heron head smallblocks say dipstick inserted "but not screwed in" but the B750 OM says "fully tightened" which is even weirder because both the Nevada and V7C OM's I checked say "not screwed in".

Now checking This Old Tractor for older stuff:

* 1000S - does not specify
* 1000SP - does not specify
* 850 Lemans - does not specify
* Cali 1100 2006 - does not specify


OK, I'm ready to throw out some theories.

1. We make much ado out of nothing - side stand vs upright, threaded or not - oil is good, not enough is bad, but all of those will mean there is enough.

2. Guzzi tech literature leaves a lot to be desired, but I WILL SAY that, like much of the rest of tech literature, it has gotten better over the years. Yeah the earlier ones didn't specify, but they also gave like 2-3 sentences when the later literature gives a full procedure with a half dozen or more steps.

About #2 - another thing you see in tech literature is no one reinvents the wheel or starts from scratch. I mean, at some point it was written from scratch and then for years (or decades) it is updated, changed. They change what they feel is important to change sometimes more than there is an actual technical change. It IS possible that they realized some people were underfilling on the sidestand because that will be less oil for the same level than if it was upright. Or they just got more anal retentive at some point about a more precise level and specifying upright became more important.

Another thing - maybe some of the old timers here with things like Ambos, Eldos, Lemans etc can say, when did crankcase breathers vented to the air cleaner become a thing on Guzzis. At what point do models start to carry over oil to the air cleaner? Maybe they just didn't care that much about oil level until THAT started to become a problem and then they realized they needed to work that upright thing into the manuals. It certainly seems that at some point THAT became a priority. Or the same tech literature guy wrote it once, then blocked and copied it into everything from then on (well that probably happened whether or not it was "necessary").

And there you have it.

Though I should add one more thing. I totally get the point of UPRIGHT and LEVEL meaning the oil level is more precise. Take my V7III for an example. Since we don't have a centerstand I checked it upright when we first bought it, then on the side stand and marked the dipstick so I could check on the side stand. That mark (I measured yesterday) is 10 mm above the full mark on the stick.  That's exactly the difference I measured on my V7 MKI yesterday, 10 mm higher on side stand.

NOW HERE's the Payoff. I recently fabricated a new ~18-20 mm thick kickstand pad and attached it to the underside of the V7III's stand so that it doesn't lean so damn much anymore. Yesterday I realized when going to check my theories that the 10 mm mark I made is no longer valid. I made a mental note to use the OEM's upright mark instead now because it's closer to upright than it is to where it leaned.

MAYBE Guzzi was smarter than us for a change. Upright makes sense. I would say it's much ado about nothing, but these late-model smallblocks do seem to like to gather oil in the airbox. If you get enough it starts to play with the throttle body mounted sensors/servos. So maybe it's not much ado about nothing anymore.

OK, signing off... time to ride.

[Zenermaniac]

I find the “upright and both wheels on the ground” a bit confusing. Since most bikes don’t come with a stock center stand where the rear wheel would be lifted, are they saying I shouldn’t check my oil while popping a wheelie?

[Kev m]

I find the “upright and both wheels on the ground” a bit confusing. Since most bikes don’t come with a stock center stand where the rear wheel would be lifted, are they saying I shouldn’t check my oil while popping a wheelie?

There's literally nothing confusing about that. It means upright and level, how you achieve that is up to you.

Hold it up (assistant)
Block it up.
Shop stand
Center stand but weighted at one end till level or blocked under tire at one end

It's not hard, pick one.

[huub]

something like this?
https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/gallery/5700-mile-1993-moto-guzzi-daytona-1000-flexes-termignoni-pipework-with-sheer-zest_8.jpg

used to be available on a deep sump.
i've got one on my le mans 2

[Dirk_S]

I don’t know about newer V7’s, but the pic I shared of the V7 II crankcase shows that the dipstick ends a couple hairs lower than where the sump begins. This means the ideal oil level tops off just above the sump. If we wanted to read the ideal oil level the same way we read the dipsticks on many of these machines (bike level with the horizon), the bored hole would either be too close to the bottom of the crankcase, or actually not even fit. Raising the sight glass might make it too high to read the oil level (at least when level with the horizontal plane). You’d most likely have to read the oil level at an angle, and either raise the sight glass on the left, or lower it farther into the sump on the right, like in that Le Mans photo.

Personally, if going through with a custom job, I’d rather risk damaging the sump than a crankcase.

[bad Chad]

Most bikes do not come with a center stand, maybe half do, but I suspect it's less.  Most Guzzi can be had with a side stand, if its not standard.

[Tom]

This thread is funny.  The more that gets posted, the more it gets funny.  I did have the thought that if I wanted the "whole" hole then maybe I should take the engine out of the frame.     

'course then again a half a hole is still a hole and could be a "whole" hole if all you want is a hole.  If'n y'all want a "whole" hole to install a sight glass in the site so that you can read the oil level make sure that the site for the oil sight is proper for engine oil level sighting.  Blah...blah....blah .....blah.......   

Good luck on the quest to mod the bike.   

[Huzo]

It could get complex…
If you have the whole hole in the sump it will be too low and if you have half the hole in the sump and half the hole in the crankcase it’ll be hard to engineer.
Of course with the whole hole in the crankcase it’ll be to high.
The holy principles of holes says, the whole hole should be on one piece or the other, not half the whole hole in one and the other half of the whole hole in the remainder….

[Dirk_S]

It could get complex…
If you have the whole hole in the sump it will be to low …
…Of course with the whole hole in the crankcase it’ll be to high.

Huzo, I’m curious how you come to either of these conclusions. Leaning on a center stand, the surface of the oil will be low on the right, and high on the left. Can you easily figure out where the oil level should reside on either side when sitting on the side stand?

[Huzo]

Leaning on a center stand, the surface of the oil will be low on the right, and high on the left.

But won’t the bike be level laterally on the centrestand, therefore giving a level surface ?
Looking at the issue of the whole hole holistically, maybe the solution is to have one on BOTH sides and average the results…

[Dirk_S]

But won’t the bike be level laterally on the centrestand, therefore giving a level surface ?

This forum feels a lot like family, because they too usually ignore what I’ve said. I wrote this just a couple responses above:

…You’d most likely have to read the oil level at an angle, and either raise the sight glass on the left, or lower it farther into the sump on the right, like in that Le Mans photo.

Nobody says you need to read oil in a custom installed sight glass with the bike at horizontal.

[Huzo]

I think I’ve come to the realisation that I’m more of a dipstick type of guy..
Remember Enos from the “Dukes of Hazzard…”

[Kev m]

I wonder if the differences in oiling systems made the sight glass possible in the V85 and if those physical differences carried over to the new V7/V9 850 motors.

[SIR REAL ED]

I think I’ve come to the realisation that I’m more of a dipstick type of guy..
Remember Enos from the “Dukes of Hazzard…”

No doubt here Mate!

I imagine you've been called "Dipstick" more than a few times in your life!

it's a badge that should be worn with pride!   

[Kaladin]

A former owner of my Norge put in a tube so that the oil level could be measured easily. 

[Tom]

Better to be a dipstick than a dip$hit.   

[SIR REAL ED]

Better to be a dipstick than a dip$hit.   

Very true. 

I just assume the person criticizing me can't tell the difference!!!