Robert Persig's Problem

[Huzo]

The process of argument itself was the end goal.

https://youtu.be/ohDB5gbtaEQ
 

[dxhall]

Ah, the distinct sense that the Bomb Cyclone is settling in here on WG 

“Sometimes when a guy contemplates his navel, he finds lint.”  (attributed to Confucius)

[SIR REAL ED]

https://youtu.be/ohDB5gbtaEQ
 

Unfortunately, arguments on the internet often lead to oppression and or repression....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2c-X8HiBng

[Lee Bruns]

Never read it and don't care to. I find most literature about motorcycles are BS except Service Manuals.
I don't do bike magazines, internet reviews, nothing. Only the Guzzi News from Frank.
I find all of it doesn't fit my situation ever, always a waste of time.

the book isn't about motorcycles. Or Zen. 

[Motormike]

the book isn't about motorcycles. Or Zen.

Which Persig tells you up front.  It's a ghost story..Persig is haunted by his past, his struggle with mental illness.  It's a story about a father trying desperately to bond with his son.  Don't know what's so tough about any of that.  It's a great book.  I've read it cover to cover twice. 

[SIR REAL ED]

Which Persig tells you up front.  It's a ghost story..Persig is haunted by his past, his struggle with mental illness.  It's a story about a father trying desperately to bond with his son.  Don't know what's so tough about any of that.  It's a great book.  I've read it cover to cover twice.

That's exactly the problem with self-styled philosophers.  They use words that don't mean what they think they mean!   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSSW3YNgzNQ

Disclaimer: the title of my book has nothing to do with the contents of my book.

I admire Persig's chutzpah!  And his publisher's marketing skills.  As evidenced by the comments above, by deceptively titling the book, they obviously sold a lot of books to people who had no interest in the subject matter!

A man with a mental illness we all can identify with!  What's not to like?

Let those of us who have not lied about things in which we are not expert cast the first marshmallow!   

Kinda like slipping the Playboy magazine inside an old motorcycle magazine cover to fool your mother......

[Mayor_of_BBQ]

Biggest problem was the book is it's all but undigestible to even the most astute and dedicated reader, and then only if you read the afterward Persig wrote and added to the paperback something like 10 years later-- which makes it a bit clearer...

I would still classify it as a good 'ol slog to get thru. I've read it a couple times, some might say 'pearls before swine', but I think it's just a largely boring book with (at best) a handful of pages that left a lasting impression and it made few salient points in total.

[SIR REAL ED]

Biggest problem was the book is it's all but undigestible to even the most astute and dedicated reader, and then only if you read the afterward Persig wrote and added to the paperback something like 10 years later-- which makes it a bit clearer...

I would still classify it as a good 'ol slog to get thru. I've read it a couple times, some might say 'pearls before swine', but I think it's just a largely boring book with (at best) a handful of pages that left a lasting impression and it made few salient points in total.

Mayor I salute you!

Those are excellent points.  I suspect for most, there has to be some useful information periodically scattered thru out any book to hold one's interest.

How many have picked up a classic, including some books that can not be mentioned at WG, and if they don't find a pearl of wisdom in the first 5, 10, 20, or 50 pages to pique their interest, they abandon the book as "not a good book."  I know I have done so many times.

I have often marveled how some authors can pack a lot of wisdom/information into a quotation of 30 words or less.  While other authors need 100+ pages to say "Roses are red!"

One of my favorite professors had two great sayings.  "Words mean things!"  and "You have to listen to the words!"

Another favorite professor had an equally great saying.  "It was a good book at 300 pages.  At 100 pages, it would have been a great book!"

As always, wisdom, like beauty will be in the eye of the beholder.

Tis a great thing!!!!!

[ChrisG]

“The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test. If the machine produces tranquility it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.”
(Pirsig, Zen ...)

[willowstreetguzziguy]

Glad I’m not alone! I thought I was the only person who couldn’t get through reading the book.

[kingoffleece]

Well, some us read it many times-like every few years.  Not really sure how it's the author's problem if some don't care for it or possibly lose sight of the face the fact that the author is very clear that (as mentioned above)  the book has little to do with both Zen and motorcycle maintenance.

It's also interesting that a great deal of classical Greek logic is involving the metaphors used in the book-and the basic rules of inference and logic seem to be missing in action for a great part of the world today-ALL over the globe.

"And what is good, Pharedrus, need we others to tell us these things?"  This is not intended as a slight or "rub" but offered in the spirit of understanding, which usually goes horribly wrong.............. .........

[SIR REAL ED]

"And what is good, Pharedrus, need we others to tell us these things?"  This is not intended as a slight or "rub" but offered in the spirit of understanding, which usually goes horribly wrong.............. .........

Amen.

The author is just a transmitter.  The reader is just a receiver.

As beauty is in the eye of the beholder, it is only the end user who can judge the personal value of whatever they observe!

Which is why philosophical argumentation is so entertaining.  It's all subjective.... except for those parts that are relative!   

"Never cast pearls before swine!  They would rather have acorns!"

"When one encounters someone casting pearls before swine, it is not against the swine that one feels indignation!"

[garbln]

I read the book years ago, as I recall his ramblings were somewhat coherent but I felt he was slowly loosing it and felt sorry for his kid who had to be there while his father went farther and farther down the rabbit hole.

[JJ]

I read the book years ago, as I recall his ramblings were somewhat coherent but I felt he was slowly loosing it and felt sorry for his kid who had to be there while his father went farther and farther down the rabbit hole.

Robert Persig's Problem:  He had MAJOR issues which came through in his ramblings and writing...However, he lived to 88.

Hunter S. Thompson ("Song Of The Sausage Creature") also had major issues...and look how that ended...

[JoeB]

Tried to read it several times over the years and eventually got through it.
Only thing that comes to mind is the kid riding on the back couldn't see much.
Not deep enough to go into all the psychological implications to that.

[garbln]

To Persig, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" Sigmund Freud

[Big_Jim59]

I do not know what this says about me but I have read and reread Zen and The Art many times but not recently. You have to read Persig's work with an eye toward the 70s. There is a bit of hippy culture haunting a guy who basically was a technical writer. I think that a lot of what he wrote has relevance for what is happening today. Maybe I will pull out my old copy.

I also read Moby Dick for fun.

[Tkelly]

It says you like to exercise your mind.

[SIR REAL ED]

I do not know what this says about me but I have read and reread Zen and The Art many times but not recently. You have to read Persig's work with an eye toward the 70s. There is a bit of hippy culture haunting a guy who basically was a technical writer. I think that a lot of what he wrote has relevance for what is happening today. Maybe I will pull out my old copy.

I also read Moby Dick for fun.

I have no idea what it says about you.   

IMHO, that is the coolest part about the interaction between the transmitter and the receiver, what the receiver picks up, may not have any accurate connection to the information the transmitter was sending.

As the old saying goes:  "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think!"   

Humans have an infinite capacity to interpret, and we are as subjective as Hell.  One man's trash is another man's treasure!  Viva la difference of opinion.

There are so many "good books" out there, why waste time with a "bad book?"  Hmmmmm....... now if you are stuck on an island with only a couple books.....

Only the individual reader gets to discern the difference between trash and treasure!!! 

The authors "know" the books they write are "good" books!

[Motormike]

I was flipping through the book and found this short passage: "If the machine produces tranquillity it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.  The test of the machine's always your own mind. There isn't any other test."  Seems to me any Moto Guzzi rider should understand that.

[Big_Jim59]

I was flipping through the book and found this short passage: "If the machine produces tranquillity it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.  The test of the machine's always your own mind. There isn't any other test."  Seems to me any Moto Guzzi rider should understand that.

Saying the book has no relation to motorcycle maintenance is evidence of not having read past the first few pages.

“And it occurred to me there is no manual that deals with the real business of motorcycle maintenance, the most important aspect of all. Caring about what you are doing is considered either unimportant or taken for granted.”

[SIR REAL ED]

I was flipping through the book and found this short passage: "If the machine produces tranquillity it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine or your mind is changed.  The test of the machine's always your own mind. There isn't any other test."  Seems to me any Moto Guzzi rider should understand that.

Amen Motorbike!!!

That is excellent advice for all of life.

You can substitute almost any word for "machine" in the above quote, and the statement will be equally valid.

Loss of tranquility or equanimity is almost always due to the perspective we choose, much more so than the object itself.

Regarding opinions one might read on the internet....

"If the machine "poster's opinion" produces tranquillity it's right. If it disturbs you it's wrong until either the machine "poster's opinion" or your mind is changed.  The test of the machine's "poster's opinion" is always your own mind. There isn't any other test."

Moto Guzzi riders (and in mind, any emotionally mature adult) should understand this, indeed.

Why entrust your peace of mind to anyone other than yourself?  This has long seemed a very foolish thing to do to me.  It is a certain recipe for frequent unhappiness.

[John A]

I don’t remember if Persig said it in his book, I imagine he did for he was thorough but it is the concept that you tend to build your emotional state into what you are working on. If you are mentally good, you will put that in the machine and the opposite is true. I know that’s one of the things learned in human factors engineering classes but don’t recall if Persig wrote it in Zen. Maybe someone who has read it recently can say