Dual Point timing procedure help

[Vecchio Lupo]

Yes, I admit to being thick headed. I read the Guzzi shop manual. I read Guzziology, and I have experience with a timing light.  Im trying to fix my shortcut cuz im a dope.

My 77 Convert was running pretty darn good. Since it was being painted, I decided to service everything I could think of. Got to points.....instead of leaving well enough alone, I got new ones.

I swapped out the points and set the gap and she started right up and idled and revved fine in garage.

After reassembly and out on the road....Power felt just a hair down, I thought I could hear pre detonation at higher rpm, also highway cruising was harder than before (engine seemed to be working too hard).

Got me thinking Im retarded at idle and cant get enough advance.     OK. I dont have a timing light here with me, but I do have a multi meter and test light, my plan is to static time for now.

Flywheel at "D"...line above the D is static timing line according to manual. on both sides of the line my points are open, so Im thinking I need to rotate the distributer till Im on that verge of activation and set...then use the minor plate adjustment for the "S" left side.

I just dont want to make a boneheaded mistake.....Im looking for a simplified procedure if it exist. YES as soon as I get $500 I'll get Dyna III and coils.

Til then ??????

[guzzisteve]

I admit to being anal when setting points but have had them last over 80K miles.   You need to put point lube on the rubbing blocks & cam of rotor. You also need the points FLAT when they touch each other. To do this I use a large magnifying glass. Flat when they separate is the key, bend them w/a needle nose pliers. Set as the gap just opens, you can see the spark. Get the spark points as close to the same point on both S & D. Do this before you turn the Dizzy or move it unless one doesn't line up.
THEN put a timing lite on the credit card.

[Vecchio Lupo]

I admit to being anal when setting points but have had them last over 80K miles.   You need to put point lube on the rubbing blocks & cam of rotor. You also need the points FLAT when they touch each other. To do this I use a large magnifying glass. Flat when they separate is the key, bend them w/a needle nose pliers. Set as the gap just opens, you can see the spark. Get the spark points as close to the same point on both S & D. Do this before you turn the Dizzy or move it unless one doesn't line up.
THEN put a timing lite on the credit card.

Thank you for the excellent advice, I will lube and square up the points.    I have a couple nice timing guns (one Ive owned since the 80s...craftsman) but they are still in my quarters in Guantanamo Bay Cuba awaiting pack up and transport to USA.   I hate to buy yet another...perhaps I can borrow one from a car guy.

I just want to be sure Im not skipping an important step. I really dont want to loosen the distributor since it seemed to have been in the right position before I swapped out parts.    Of course I am putting faith in the previous owner, he might know less than me. judging by the condition I found it in, thats a good bet.

[pehayes]

I really dont want to loosen the distributor since it seemed to have been in the right position before I swapped out parts.

If you removed and changed points, then the distributor most surely is NOT in the correct position.  It might be close, but timing is very sensitive and parts change has a major impact.  You need to verify timing.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[pehayes]

Flywheel at "D"...line above the D is static timing line according to manual. on both sides of the line my points are open, so Im thinking I need to rotate the distributer till Im on that verge of activation and set...then use the minor plate adjustment for the "S" left side.

It has been awhile since I've been into a dual point distributor.  Last one I had was converted to Dyna-III.

You describe the flywheel in "D" (destro) position and points remain open before and after the line.  The crankshaft (and thus the flywheel) rotates in a 2:1 ratio with the camshaft which drives the distributor.  If you have set it for "D", have you confirmed the correct "D"?  The flywheel and "D" will appear twice for a full cycle of the engine and one full rotation of the cam/distributor.  Try rotating the crank another 360 degrees and see if you have the same experience with points.

IIRC ( I could be ass backwards without looking in the book), the ignition system is set up static timing based on the "S" (sinistro) or left side.  Thereafter, the engine is rotated to the proper condition of the "D" right side and that side timing is now fine tuned by the floater plate in the distributor.

Study in more detail to confirm.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Vecchio Lupo]

Im working off of an 850T manual...it says do the right/Destro first and then left Sinistro.     Although......how do you know if your on the correct TDC for the flywheel mark "D". ?   

[pehayes]

Although......how do you know if your on the correct TDC for the flywheel mark "D". ?

For perfection, you can just remove a valve cover, rotate the engine by hand in normal direction (counterclockwise as viewed from the seat looking forward), and watch the action of the rocker arms.  You want the cylinder in question to be at the top-dead-center of its compression stroke.  You can feel in the spark plug hole with a straw or a chopstick (never metal) to feel for the piston coming up to TDC.  With some experience, you could also tell by looking at the points and the distributor shaft lobes to detect when each set of points is just about to crack open.  The points remain closed a long period and then the distributor shaft lobe pushes them open.  The spark occurs at the instant the points crack open and break electrical contact.  When you wrote that the points seemed open both before and after the timing line that provided a big hint that you were on the wrong stroke of the engine and needed another 360 crank rotation.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[chuck peterson]

Static timing on a Convert gets you in the neighborhood and good to confirm both sides are working together.

Make sure your getting full advance w your timing light on the centerstand without pulling the clutch lever. Takes into account the slop of the fluid drive

I believe Verts reputation as slow-ish comes from static timing and the wrong dizzy springs. Check your guzziology. Yes their great to slow poke around on for a million miles but there’s a 1000cc motor in there waiting to get out. Try full throttle in low range at 50mph…Surprise! Surprise! Surprise!

[theoneandonlymin]

I opened up the slots to give a bigger range of adjustment as I was replacing the magic eyes on my Newtronics. The new ones were slightly different centres than my 30 year existing ones.

Before...



After

[Vecchio Lupo]

thank you all, I feel Im on the right track now.   I will take everything into account....exactly the responses I was looking for.

[Vecchio Lupo]

Boys, it was fiddly and frustrating but with all the good guidance I received here I was able to get a very good static time on my Dual Point torture device. I did have to rotate my Distributor about 1/16 of a turn to get the right static point to jibe with the flywheel. I then had to slide the left side points back and forth in the groove to get that right........sounds great on the bench, smooth and rev happy as a Convert can sound.

Road test later today and then source a light to make sure Ive got full advance. 

I've had a Goose in the garage since about 1986, but in all the Loop frames and Tontis that found their way to me, I never had a Convert. I knew a couple guys that had them in the past, and while they never talked bad about them, they never bragged either.

This one found its way from a barn in Canadys, SC , I was there to look at a BMW K100 that was just junk when I saw the Goose in the corner.....a deal was struck and I started down the Convert path.    Im not sure if I could have one as my only bike, but they are such characters that I wouldn't want to be without one.

Thank You all again.

This just in.....SPOT ON. the butt dyno says power and acceleration and the ears hear no ping ting and no struggling at speed.    Best it run with me ever.   cant wait to throw the gun on it

[n3303j]

Once you get your timing where you like it you never again have to rotate your distributor (unless you change to points with a different physical configuration).

The timing will change as the rubbing block wears. That is because that wear closed the gap.

You can adjust the gap on that distributor with the engine running. Just slightly loosen the points mounting screws and use the screwdriver adjusting slot to move rhe fixed points on their mounting plate.

The tank has to be off for access. Watch the timing mark with a strobe as you tweak the points until you have correct alignment. Then snug up the points mounting screws and double check that timing is still spot on.

This method eliminates the difficulties incurred when trying to RESET a used points set gap where contacts may have humps and valleys with a feeler gage.