Mille/tonti swingarm pins removal question

[tobydmv]

Before I grab the big hammer, or the impact wrench, i'd thought i'd ask how to remove the swingarm "pins #6 - 14547001. 


Heat and torch?  They are in there TIGHT.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-sIeXORCfmBE/VUlQhejoTeI/AAAAAAAAAts/fRGRTT_0Plw/w506-h675/15%2B-%2B1

[rodekyll]

Depending on the year you'll need a different tool.  Most common is the huge flatblade screwdriver or the 8mm allen.

Bu the big lock nut is the same, I think.  I use an adjustable spanner of it.

Crack the big nut loose and count the turns to unscrew the pins.  Keep them id'd l/r as you set them aside.

The swingarm will sag when the pins are removed and it will be hanging by the ujoint.  It helps to have cleared all the shocks/brakes/wheels/AND THE BOOT ahead of time

Let the tail of the swingarm fall as far as it's going to.  Then raise it a tiny bit and work it out from the frame.  Some folks loosen the frame bolts for a little more wiggle room.  There is a channel or 'pocket' in the frame lower to allow the swingarm to slide easily in and out of positon.  Keep that im mind for reassembly.

Reassembly is straightforward until you get to the pins.
With the tail at a sharp down angle, find that channel I spoke of and use it to guide the cross piece back into place.  Get the ujoint started on its splines as you go.  If you have everything lined up right it should be a 30sec operation.

But the pins are another story.  They are fine thread and like to cross thread when not exactly aligned to their bores, so be careful.  Strip the female threads and you might be buying a new frame.

Once you have the pins started, count the number of turns back to their original position.  Check the swingarm drop.  You want to tighten the pins THE SAME AMOUNT until the arm binds, and then back them off EVENLY a skoosh until it juuuust freefalls.  The evenness of the pin depth is critical because it locates the swingarm in the frame where it needs to be in order to center the ujoint/splines axis.  If you're off your drive shaft/ujoints/bearinngs/shafts are in a sideloaded bind.  That's not a good thing.

[fotoguzzi]

be glad you don't have the slotted version if they are rusted in there.
big hex wrench (8MM?) with a length of pipe for leverage. penetrating oil before hand and give it time. not sure if I'd use an impact gun . heat maybe, try some then add more penetrating oil.
if they get butchered I'll send you a used but good pair free, they might be the slotted version.

[tobydmv]

Thanks a ton guys.  Mine are the 8mm hex pins.  I left the right side shock and drive housing in place while trying to loosen these.  I also measured the amount of threads or depth with a mic each pin has.  The left pin came right out.  The right side pin wont budge after 3 cycles with the heat gun.  So its soaking in kroil.  I might try the map gas torch tomorrow.  I'm trying to remove the swing arm to replace the clutch driven piston O ring and the push rod seals.  Had another massive oil leak at the gear box breather hose.  It was split and cracked.  It was routed up next to the battery for some strange reason.  The battery, tray, and back of the case were soaked in oil.  Since the stock air box is now removed, does anyone recommend retrofitting a pcv valve to the gear box breather?  I've used small air filters before with good luck.  The engine case is still routed to the frame but the return line is just hanging around near the battery box.

[earemike]

Not advised but when I stripped my frame I had to drill one out. It had the screw driver slots, with the Allen persistence & penetrant should to the trick.

[rodekyll]

That pin may have already been damaged.   :'(

Be certain that all pressure is off the pin -- completely support the swing arm.  A bit of pvc pipe through the empty hole where you got the other pin out might help keep it straight.

Get the penetrating oil on both sides of the pin (squirt at the joint of frame and swingarm to get it on the inside).

Turn the pin out till it binds some, turn back in 1/6 turn, and then back out till it binds some again.  Hopefully each cycle gains a little.  Be most careful for the last few turns.  That's where you're most likely to be damaged/do damage.

Post pics of the pin and hole when you get it apart.

[tobydmv]

The pin is out.  I put the mapp gas torch on it and sweated in a few rounds of home made kroil (atf/acetone).  Threads are fine.  I think it was just torqued in and lightly seized.  The swing arm is also out and i've replaced the clutch push rod seals and oring on the clutch driven pin/tophat.  Then fitted a new clutch cable.  Unfortunately, the drive shaft boot is split.  I'll need to order some more parts and wait.  That will give me time to clean and regrease the swing arm bearings and the drive shaft support bearing.  Is it easier to remove that bearing or clean it in place?  I'm not sure I can get the seal out while its recessed in its bore.  Well what else needs maintenance while i'm in the rear end?  Anything in the rear drive to look at?
Thanks,
Toby

[rodekyll]

Glad it was an effort but not a problem.   New pins aren't too expensive compared to the alternative.  If the hex hole is getting beat up or you're nervous about the threads, replace it.  A little antiseize helps prevent the problem in the future.  The pin should not have been torqued in.  It must allow freefall.  It's more likely that the locknut was overtightened (iirc, there's a wavy washer under it).  It's like a pinch bolt -- just snug+ is fine.

I don't think it's possible to service the bearing in situ, but determined people can make an easy job as hard as they want to.   ;D

Get new pivot seals while you're ordering the boot.  You're making the right decision to take the time and deal with the split boot.  If your rear drive flange shows wet, you might want to replace the o-ring seal (I think that model has the o-ring).  Otherwise the less you mess with the rear gears the better off you are.

[Matteo]

Just so happens I am doing the same to my CX. All came apart easy and looks good. I was wondering about greasing the shaft and u joint before reassembly or is it lubed thought the rear?
Thanks
Matt

[rodekyll]

If you mean the splines -- grease them.  I use that plastic-y blue grease when I can find it.  When I can't I use an EP moly like CV joint grease.  You shouldn't be migrating any lube from the rear up the shaft.

If you mean something else, elaborate.

[Matteo]

That's the answer I was looking for. Thanks Dave. The bike had a split boot , the splines and ujoint were surprisingly clean but for some old grease.
Regards
Matt

[Aaron D.]

I wouldn't remove the carrier bearing to grease it. If you have it out, pop in a new one. Though they seem to last better on later bikes than the short-arm bikes.

[tobydmv]

Stupid question, is the u joint symmetric?  Is there a front and back?  The diagram looks like theres a small bevel edge on the wheel side but I dont remember seeing that on mine at home.

[rodekyll]

I have been told that some are reversible.  I don't know on account of I don't use them and haven't serviced one in a decade or so.

[Idontwantapickle]

Stupid question, is the u joint symmetric?  Is there a front and back?  The diagram looks like theres a small bevel edge on the wheel side but I dont remember seeing that on mine at home.

No, one side fits in the carrier bearing and one will not. Even so it's still a tight fit, or should be!
Hunter

[Groover]

I'm gonna slide in a questions since it's related:

My engine is off the frame now, and I was planning on replacing item #31 from the below diagram as it looks like I can get to it from the drive shaft area since it's nice an open. I'm afraid to open another can of worms during this restoration as that is how it has been... but I'll ask just in case I want to do it. How much is involved on removing the rear cover #11 and if it's easy, what are the other seal numbers? I'm not seeing them.. Is  #12 one of them? Also, I assume the oil needs drained from the transmission to do this, or is the oil level below the lowest point of the cover? And I would also need gasket #10 of course.



There was some oil seepage under the tranny before I removed the engine and before cleaning things, but honestly I really couldn't tell where it was coming from - not a huge oil loss, but not completely dry either.

Last questions... if I don't do this now, it sounds like the rear cover (#11) can be by removing the rear swing arm only (and not necessary to remove the engine) Correct?

[rodekyll]

I can't see the diagram.

[Groover]

Fixed it..

[twhitaker]

Item 12 is an o-ring which, in most cases, is still fine. It might come out after removing the lever but why bother?

The oil below could be from a number of places, least likely from the gearbox. I'm betting what's down there is engine oil or ATF.

[Groover]

I think what you are saying is "leave it alone, you're in already over your head and if you actually want to ride that beast this year don't touch that cover"  ;D - And if that's what you mean, I'll take that advice!

[rodekyll]

You should be able to get to the output shaft seal (#31) without removing the cover -- at least I can on my Convert.  If it's dry, don't tempt fate.  If it's leaky, go for it.

Not sure where you'd be getting an atf leak on a 5-speed.. .

[twhitaker]

Not sure where you'd be getting an atf leak on a 5-speed.. .

DOH!  ;D

[tobydmv]

No, one side fits in the carrier bearing and one will not. Even so it's still a tight fit, or should be!
Hunter

Thanks for that bit of info.  I'll clean the bearing out and put it all back together.  I may tear it down again and get the frame painted this winter. 

[fotoguzzi]

Well what else needs maintenance while i'm in the rear end?  Anything in the rear drive to look at?
Thanks,
Toby

since you asked you could try to service the cush drive.. you'll probably have a real challenge getting the plate off tho..

[Idontwantapickle]

since you asked you could try to service the cush drive.. you'll probably have a real challenge getting the plate off tho..

:+1 That's a good idea, stuck cush drive in wheel is hard on all those expensive steel parts.

[John A]

As far as the ujoint carrier bearing, if you can see it, replace it. They are not expensive at a bearing supply or auto parts store and the consequences of a failure can be expensive , both in parts and hide.

[tobydmv]

As far as the ujoint carrier bearing, if you can see it, replace it. They are not expensive at a bearing supply or auto parts store and the consequences of a failure can be expensive , both in parts and hide.

That is good advice.  I went ahead and pressed the bearing out.  Will replace it tomorrow.  I was worried about finding old roller bits in the bearing area.  I think a previous ujoint blew up on this bike.  I dont think its from the current ujoint because its very smooth and I cant feel any play or knock in it.  The metal looks clean and not oxidized or rusted.  I dont see any grease fittings on the ujoint though.  Am I missing them?  My '02 lemans had 3 of them I think...

[Stevex]

I also measured the amount of threads or depth with a mic each pin has.

Always presuming they were properly adjusted when last fitted.
When I fit my swinging arm I insert the first pin through the frame and into the bearing then very carefully counter rotate the pin until the start of the pin thread clicks over the start of the frame thread. At this point I rotate the pin into the frame by a couple of turns. I then repeat on the other side, at which point I know both pins are located in the frame threads by exactly the same amount.
It's then just a matter of turning each pin by the same amount (to start with a turn a side, then reducing to a hex drive flat at a time) until all side play in the arm is eliminated. Perfect every time.

[jrt]

I'm gonna slide in a questions since it's related:

There was some oil seepage under the tranny before I removed the engine and before cleaning things, but honestly I really couldn't tell where it was coming from - not a huge oil loss, but not completely dry either.

I would suggest that perhaps the oil migrated up the clutch pushrod tunnel.  Are the clutch plates or flywheel wet with oil?  Replace the goofy cone washers with the set of o-rings available from Moto International (or perhaps other sources?). 

[Vasco DG]

Just back-tracking a bit you said that the gearbox breather was run 'Up near the battery'? That's where it's supposed to be. If a lot of oil is being expelled it is either over filled or there is something wrong in the box.

Pete