B11 starting issues in cool weather

[old head]

I have had only one time that it wouldn't start since the MPH wiring fix.  It was 34 one morning, although in the past it started colder than that.  I mean it wouldn't turn over, just click.  Haven't had that cold of weather since, it has started everytime since. 

Of course, its still on the original battery, its coming on 4 years and 3 months.

Old Head

[Kiwi_Roy]

Sorry for no replies to this thread lately, between not figuring out a solution and reading other threads on this same subject I kind of lost track of this thread.

I've been doing a lot of on and off again diagnostics in trying to figure my puzzle out. Here is rundown of what I've done:

1) Load tested original battery it tested as acceptable.
2) Since solenoid always clicks, checked to see if voltage ever came from the solenoid to starter and could not detect any which lead me to believing solenoid was bad.
3) Bought new starter (Chinese clone) as the price of solenoid was over half the price of new starter. Put new starter on, still get same results.
4) Bought new battery, its the only major component I've not replaced in the equation at this point. Still  no starting.

Started to probe the starter relay to see what it was doing. The relay has 4 wires: Yellow which is the power line that drives the starter solenoid. This wire is hot when ignition is tuned on. This is also the wire that many just splice into battery. Yellow-Orange battery is the wire that goes to the starter solenoid to activate the starter, it is supposed to become hot when starter button is pushed. Brown wire I believe comes from the ECU and is live when ignition is turned on. Finally the black wire is the relay trigger wire from the ECU, it triggers the relay when it gets a connection to ground.

Here are some findings I've gathered from using a test light vs. volt meter with the relay: If I touch the test light to the black wire the starter will engage and start the bike, no matter if yellow wire is connected to stock wiring or a battery bypass. If the yellow-orange wire is disconnected from the starter and connected to test probe, the test probe will light for about 4-5 seconds when starter button is pressed. If the yellow-orange wire is connected to starter the test probe will only produce faint flash of light when starter button is pressed and all I get is solenoid engaging but no starting.

I right now can only think of 2 things that could be wrong: 1 – The starter relay is of the resistor variety and maybe the resistor is shot which is inducing noise into starter circuit and causing the ECU to disconnect shortly after starter button is pressed. 2 – The ECU has lost its mind somehow and stopping the starting process. I REALLY hope it is not the ECU!

If anyone has a starting B1100 or a new relay maybe someone could measure the resistance across the silver contacts of the relay (Black & Brown wire connections) and tell me what it is. I can test and compare mine and see if this may be the issue. The relay and ECU are only components left that I've not replaced.

This report back sheds a lot of light.
The colours you say are on the relay don't match Carls drawing for the 2005 but if you put the test light on the black wire it causes the bike to start each time, from this I conclude your test lamp is picking up the start relay which engages the solenoid and starter.
If this is the case we can rule out the circuit connected to the contact side of the relay, I think the problem lies in the circuit picking up the relay.
Perhaps as you suggest the voltage is dropping as soon as the starter engages dropping it straight back out again.
So why does the ECU think the battery voltage is too low, my guess is the ignition switch is dirty.
The starter solenoid draws a massive 50 Amps at the instant it pulls in then drops to 10, Any resistance at all and it will drop a lot of voltage.

Try cleaning the switch.

[rojopony]

As of now I'm considering the problem fixed with new bigger battery. Just now have issues I've seen others are having with Lithium batteries in cool weather, which I'm learning to work around till there are more warm days than cold ones. Given how hot weather was in Texas last year, it won't be long till temperature is no longer a factor with the Lithium battery.

My mistake in not stating that the new battery was a new Lithium battery, did not think that would have been issue as motorcycle community has been buzzing about how good and strong these lithium batteries are. I had found the Shorai battery for just a few buck more than an AGM replacement so I figured I'd use the newest most bad a$$ battery in the system. Just my luck the original battery recommended by the manufacturer was too small to begin with which fouled up trying to figure out problem. REALLY glad Shorai worked so well with me to get the bigger version.

As for colors of the relay, I might have made mistakes in my colors as I went over notes I was jotting during the process of figuring out how the system worked. What did cause starter to engage when the relay was probed was that I had manually done what the ECU does to that same connection which is provide a path to ground that triggers the relay to engage the starter.

Even though it might appear to have been shotgun style diagnostics, the batteries (original & replacement) lead me astray. I'm not worried about the starter, as I don't really mind having a spare starter lying about considering what I've read about Velao (sp?)starters and it takes a week for me to get parts as I have no dealer close.

There may be debate about if the ECU has a built-in voltage / amperage threshold, but it does play a part in that it controls the relay that engages the starter solenoid which is what was keeping the starter from working. Each battery had enough juice to turn the engine over when manually forced to do so, just not when wired into the system as designed. My at this point warped mind even tried to think if it was possible to come up with some sort of uninterrupted power supply to feed into the ECU during starts to prevent it from stopping the starting sequence when the large draw of starter solenoid happened. If the bike had simple starter system to which the starter button actually actuated the relay that engages the starer solenoid, this problem would not have risen at this point in the life of the original battery in my opinion.

I did look into taking out ignition lock to clean, but when I got up in there I'd found that one of the two bolts holding it in was of the shear head variety. I did not have tools to drill and back out the shear bolt. That was about the time I had to walk away from the problem before I did something that I'd later regret.

I do thank everyone that gave suggestions! I learned far more about the automated starting system of this bike than I EVER wanted to know. Once again THANKS EVERYONE.
 

[Bisbonian]

Which battery did you end up getting?

I ask because I have the Shorai that is recommended on their website and it has changed my riding habits to where I am worried about being gone overnight since I'm not sure my bike will start without some plugged in assistance.

[Kiwi_Roy]

So the ignition switch has some special security bolts. Instead of removing the switch you can still measure the contact resistance.
It should be < 0.5 Ohms and the same each time you turn the switch on. Look at the diagram and you will identify points in
the circuit that are accessible.
If you find it's not you may have to bite the bullet and drill out the bolts, or re-wire the starter circuit by-passing the switch.

Don't you have a local dealer with the special driver?

Roy
Update
  I think when you press start the relay closes but at that instant the starter draws a high current dropping the Voltage back at the ECU, it says enough already and de-energises the start relay, that's why you see just a flash at the starter.
Easy to verify by watching the Voltage at the fuse feeding the ECU

My money is still on the Ignition switch :beat_horse

[egschade]

I'm now going through the same issue with my 07 B1100. Thought I had it licked but cooler weather the last two days and I'm back to 'the click'. If the battery tender is on for 15 min it fires right up. If I put a 6A charger on the battery it immediately starts - no waiting. Once running and warmed up it typically works the rest of the day.

New relay, new lead acid battery, direct relay feed, cleaned contacts, cleaned solenoid, checked the starter, pretty much everything but the ignition switch cleaning.

Did cleaning the switch work? Did anyone ever truly fix this problem? Or should I start carrying my tender and always park near an outlet...

[ken farr]

Dead battery--no lights on dash, no gauge sweep on later bikes, no crank. no start.
Electrical fault-- key on, gauge sweep, hit starter button, hear click, but no starter engagement.
Fuel/Control issue, key on, gauge sweep, starter engages, cranks for about ten seconds, motor won't start.

Man, that should be etched on the wall of every shop......I'm heading out to the garage with a chisel in hand.....


 ;-T


kjf

[egschade]

......I'm heading out to the garage with a chisel in hand.....

To work on the bike?

I'm ready to take a hammer to my "electrical fault"

[Kiwi_Roy]

RojoPony,
             I read through the thread again, nowhere did I see you cutting the yellow wire and feeding it directly from the battery.
This yellow feed to the Start Relay MUST NOT go through the ignition switch, that's asking for trouble.

Egschade, I just sent you a PM

[egschade]

RojoPony,
             I read through the thread again, nowhere did I see you cutting the yellow wire and feeding it directly from the battery.
This yellow feed to the Start Relay MUST NOT go through the ignition switch, that's asking for trouble.

Thanks Roy - agreed. That's what I meant by 'direct relay feed'. I have a fused line going directly to the yellow relay lead.

[Kiwi_Roy]

This has been a bane of mechanics/technicians for a long time.

Verify complaint.
Everyone says "the vehicle won't start".

Dead battery--no lights on dash, no gauge sweep on later bikes, no crank. no start.
Electrical fault-- key on, gauge sweep, hit starter button, hear click, but no starter engagement.
Fuel/Control issue, key on, gauge sweep, starter engages, cranks for about ten seconds, motor won't start.

These are important questions.  
It can be mind-numbingly difficult to walk people(particularly females driving BMW cars) through these questions.

Can't tell you how many times I have heard "It's doing the same thing! It won't start!"

People, lets be a bit more specific when you say the bike won't start
The Start relay is a small cube with 5 pins and plugs into a socket
The solenoid is a cylinder that sits on top of the starter, it has two large terminals and one or two small ones at one end
The Starter is bolted to the gearbox, a larger cylinder with the solenoid mounted on top

So when you say it won't start
Do you hear nothing
Do you hear the faint click from the relay.
Do you hear the clunk of the solenoid
Does the motor crank (turn over) but doesn't fire.

We seem to have 3 different bikes in this thread
RojoPony
Skippy
& Egschade

Who is still having a problem?

[egschade]

Who is still having a problem?

Just so folks are clear I (egschade) dusted off this old thread since I'm having similar issues to those reported by the initial posters. Thought I could pull in the knowledge gained from the discussion.

 To restate MY starting issue when the bike is cold or the battery isn't 100%:
- I get a loud solenoid clack but the starter motor won't spin. I hear the starter relay holding for about 5 seconds
- I have a direct, fused feed to the yellow lead on the relay (which is brand new )
- I have a brand new lead acid battery that reads ~12.6-12.7 and drops a couple 1/10th when I attempt to start
- If I jump the starter the bike will immediately fire up
- If I jump the battery or attach my 6A charger the bike will immediately fire up
- If I put my battery tender on for 10-15 min the bike will immediately fire up
- If I take a longer ride or leave the tender on overnight the bike will start without fail for 2-3 days before the 'clack' returns
- The colder it is the faster I return to 'clack' mode

In sum it seem like if my 07 B1100 starting circuit is extremely sensitive to almost any voltage drop at the battery. I'm beginning to think the new battery may be sub-par.

I'm working this with Kiwi Roy offline on a number of measurements and will let everyone know if we uncover anything.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Eric,
        Can you describe what you do when you Jump the starter, you touch a wire from where to where
I'm trying to understand why it starts with a jump and not via the start relay, you say that you have put a direct feed on the start relay which should be the equivalent of taking a wire from battery + and touching the small terminal of the solenoid.

The start solenoid would like to pull 50 Amps, it takes a lot of current to pull the solenoid in but not much to hold it there

BTW, that's a really cool picture of your Grandfather, you need to post it in a large format along with the story behind it  ;-T

[egschade]

Roy - What I mean by jumping the starter is that I took a car battery with jumper cables. Neg to chassis and with a screwdriver, carefully touched the hot lead to the load side of the solenoid / hot side of the starter. The starter spun up, meaning that the starter motor is functioning.

Sent you an email with the test results. The interesting thing is that below 12.4v the solenoid clacks but does not deliver any current - as in zero - to the starter motor. I cleaned and slightly lubed the solenoid but no change. It certainly *seems* to indicate a bad solenoid...

[Kiwi_Roy]

Eric is on the warpath, im sure he will solve the mystery and get back to us shortly  ;-T

Making his Grandpa proud