Author Topic: Diagnostic Help Needed  (Read 7862 times)

canuck750

  • Guest
Diagnostic Help Needed
« on: June 15, 2015, 11:56:38 PM »
My Eldorado ran great all last year other than being a little difficult to start when hot. This winter I dropped the bike off at a shop for a dyno run. The shop claimed that the bike was now perfect, started on the button, They claimed the throttle cable on one side was a wee bit to short and the left hand carb was to rich fouling a plug and leading to difficult hot starting.

This spring I took the bike for a half days ride at mixed speeds, mostly secondary highway. At the end of the day the bike was having a hard time idling, I had to keep the rpm up or it would die. The whole time the damn tachometer was flapping back and forth with a mind of its own. I thought the poor running was a symptom of the tach interrupting the ignition. The plugs were all sooty. For the past month the Eldo has sat while I have run the V7 Sport. I tried to take the Eldo out last week but it was difficult to start and would not idle.

I tried fresh plugs on the weekend started up, idled for a while then died.

This evening I went through everything I could think of, stripped the carbs down, checked float height, torqued the heads (they were to spec), set the valve gap ( again they were to spec), set the point gap and the static timing (seemed to be good), then installed fresh plugs. Started right up. I let it warm up and synced the carbs with mercury sticks. After a good ten minutes the idle was dropping right down and the bike would die unless I raised the rpm. I had to raise the idle to keep it running, eventually the idle dropped off an it it struggled to run then died, Bike refused to restart. I opened the gas cap several times when it began to fade, to no avail.

Bike has an alternator conversion, engine has 2500 miles un a total rebuild. I have an Odyssey battery that is always on a battery tender when parked.

An I missing something simple??

Could this be a faulty coil, I wonder if the buggered electronic tach could have wrecked the coil?

lawries

  • Guest
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2015, 12:21:58 AM »
Condenser s ???

Offline flangeman_70

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2015, 12:59:29 AM »
You only went to school to learn how to learn

Adam

SP III 1990
V10 Centauro 1996

Offline atavar

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 861
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2015, 01:34:46 AM »
you said new cables..  any time I replace cables I find I have to re-adjust them after a few hours of use.  Just a thought.  YMMV.
2008 Norge - Black Wing Squadron

Online rodekyll

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 21218
  • Not my real name
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2015, 02:16:15 AM »
What happens if you run it with the tach disconnected?

canuck750

  • Guest
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2015, 09:16:02 AM »
What happens if you run it with the tach disconnected?

The tach was disconnected, started and ran real good for 10 ~ 15 minutes.

Stumpted

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 14960
  • Happily stuck in the past.
    • Antietam Classic Cycle
  • Location: Rohrersville, Maryland
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2015, 09:34:33 AM »
Did you ever replace the coil and if so, with what?
Charlie

canuck750

  • Guest
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2015, 09:59:34 AM »
Did you ever replace the coil and if so, with what?

Yes I did replace the coil, a while back I bought an electronic ignition kit from Curtis, this was prior to fitting the alternator. A year later a diode in the alternator went kaput, and in diagnosing this I failed (stupidly) to remove the battery + and I fried the electronic ignition :thewife: :thewife:

Education is not cheap no matter how you get it

I put the points back in and all has been well other than difficulty starting when hot. I had my V7 Sport tuned on a dyno so I thought what the heck lets see if the Eldo can run a lot better.

Perhaps it is a coincidence but either the tach is the source or something happened during the dyno tune

When I first got the Eldo moving I had carbon high tension leads, Mike Harper diagnosed the carbon leads as the cause of the bike dying once it got hot, swapped to good old copper core and it ran like a top.

Should I swap to a blue Bosch coil?

nunzio

  • Guest
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2015, 10:06:26 AM »
Choke not closed all the way?

canuck750

  • Guest
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2015, 10:25:48 AM »
Choke not closed all the way?

New flip lever chokes. Plugs are a nice light brown colour after 10 ~ 15 minutes of running and the engine idle drops off and she dies. No soot on the plugs and no signs of fouling.

I believe this is an electrical problem and not related to the carburation.

Offline fotoguzzi

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 20003
  • vee git tooh soon oldt und too late wise -my Dad
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2015, 10:30:27 AM »
Doesn't a bad coil do just that when hot?
MINNEAPOLIS, MN

oldbike54

  • Guest
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #11 on: June 16, 2015, 10:38:17 AM »
Condenser s ???

 Any chance you are using modern replacement condensers of unknown origin ? Had a similar issue with an airhead , replaced the " new" condenser with the old one , bike ran fine .

  Dusty

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 14960
  • Happily stuck in the past.
    • Antietam Classic Cycle
  • Location: Rohrersville, Maryland
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #12 on: June 16, 2015, 10:49:27 AM »
Yes I did replace the coil, a while back I bought an electronic ignition kit from Curtis, this was prior to fitting the alternator. A year later a diode in the alternator went kaput, and in diagnosing this I failed (stupidly) to remove the battery + and I fried the electronic ignition :thewife: :thewife:

Education is not cheap no matter how you get it

I put the points back in and all has been well other than difficulty starting when hot. I had my V7 Sport tuned on a dyno so I thought what the heck lets see if the Eldo can run a lot better.

Perhaps it is a coincidence but either the tach is the source or something happened during the dyno tune

When I first got the Eldo moving I had carbon high tension leads, Mike Harper diagnosed the carbon leads as the cause of the bike dying once it got hot, swapped to good old copper core and it ran like a top.

Should I swap to a blue Bosch coil?

If you still have the "Flamethrower" coil that came with the Pertronix e.i. installed, then you should be good to go. But, it still wouldn't hurt to try another one just rule that out.
Charlie

Offline flangeman_70

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2015, 12:19:57 PM »
Just run the bike up to failure point, then begin disconnecting things.
Tacho is easy, individual coils are easy, condensers are easy and even the power from m he regulator if you think it is this.
Stating the obvious here, eliminating the simple things is easier then wildly guessing  :thumb:
You only went to school to learn how to learn

Adam

SP III 1990
V10 Centauro 1996

Offline Antietam Classic Cycle

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 14960
  • Happily stuck in the past.
    • Antietam Classic Cycle
  • Location: Rohrersville, Maryland
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2015, 12:24:25 PM »
Just run the bike up to failure point, then begin disconnecting things.
Tacho is easy, individual coils are easy, condensers are easy and even the power from m he regulator if you think it is this.
Stating the obvious here, eliminating the simple things is easier then wildly guessing  :thumb:

There is only one coil and one condenser.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 03:33:38 PM by Antietam Classic Cycle »
Charlie

Offline flangeman_70

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 289
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2015, 12:46:56 PM »
Sorry, I wasn't clear enough there  :shocked:
Undo the condenser and substitute the coil.
You only went to school to learn how to learn

Adam

SP III 1990
V10 Centauro 1996

Online rodekyll

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 21218
  • Not my real name
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2015, 04:13:21 PM »
I've got nothing helpful, but I'm very interested in the solution -- I know a guy in WA with the same complaint.

Offline centauro

  • Gaggle Mentor
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
  • Location: FL
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2015, 06:16:13 PM »
My Eldorado ran great all last year other than being a little difficult to start when hot. This winter I dropped the bike off at a shop for a dyno run. The shop claimed that the bike was now perfect, started on the button, They claimed the throttle cable on one side was a wee bit to short and the left hand carb was to rich fouling a plug and leading to difficult hot starting.

This spring I took the bike for a half days ride at mixed speeds, mostly secondary highway. At the end of the day the bike was having a hard time idling, I had to keep the rpm up or it would die. The whole time the damn tachometer was flapping back and forth with a mind of its own. I thought the poor running was a symptom of the tach interrupting the ignition. The plugs were all sooty. For the past month the Eldo has sat while I have run the V7 Sport. I tried to take the Eldo out last week but it was difficult to start and would not idle.

I tried fresh plugs on the weekend started up, idled for a while then died.

This evening I went through everything I could think of, stripped the carbs down, checked float height, torqued the heads (they were to spec), set the valve gap ( again they were to spec), set the point gap and the static timing (seemed to be good), then installed fresh plugs. Started right up. I let it warm up and synced the carbs with mercury sticks. After a good ten minutes the idle was dropping right down and the bike would die unless I raised the rpm. I had to raise the idle to keep it running, eventually the idle dropped off an it it struggled to run then died, Bike refused to restart. I opened the gas cap several times when it began to fade, to no avail.

Bike has an alternator conversion, engine has 2500 miles un a total rebuild. I have an Odyssey battery that is always on a battery tender when parked.

An I missing something simple??

Could this be a faulty coil, I wonder if the buggered electronic tach could have wrecked the coil?
[/quote

This may be a long shot, but.....
could your ignition switch contacts get hot from excessive resistance (caused by corrosion) and reduce or cut out juice to the coil?

Val
Val Barone
1984 1000 SP/NT (sold)
1973 Benelli 650S Tornado (sold)
1985 Vespa PX150E
1973 Honda CB 350 Four

Learn from other's mistakes ; you won't live long enough to make them all yourself.  Eleanor Roosevelt

Offline Kiwi_Roy

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 10231
  • Location: New Westminster British Columbia, Canada
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2015, 10:37:11 AM »
Check the Voltage on the coil.
A Voltmeter will not always show the truth for example if the points are open it will show 12 Volts even with a high resistance to the coil, try a jumper from the battery to coil hot terminal.

With the points disconnected from the coil measure Ohms to chassis on the points terminal it should go from zero to infinity in a curve as the condenser charges when the points open.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2015, 10:40:41 AM by Kiwi_Roy »
17 V7III Special
76 Convert

Moto Guzzi - making electricians out of riders since 1921

Offline Idontwantapickle

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1683
  • The rotation of the earth really makes my day.
  • Location: Closer than farther away
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2015, 12:20:23 PM »
Val makes a very good point on the switch. You mentioned the tach flailing about. That is a symptom of intermittent power loss, does not necessarily mean tach is bad.
Hunter
There is no end to what we can do together.
Sir James Paul McCartney

AMA Charter Life Member

72 Eldo
85 LeMans 1000 Loud, Fast and Red
2007 Norge rivestimento di argento
84 BMW R100RS

Offline jbell

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 926
  • Some progress
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2015, 04:19:00 PM »
I'm guessing a coil that works fine when cold but "opens up" when hot, as it seems to be a gradual process as the bike warms up.
'75 Ducati 860 GT  On the road
'76 Guzzi T3   Future project
'78 Guzzi G5  Current project
'81 Guzzi G5  Organ donor
'92 BMW K75RT  On the road
'16 Triumph Thruxton R  "Holy Moly"  Gone but not forgotten, sigh.


"Be yourself, everyone else is taken".......Oscar Wilde

Bill Havins

  • Guest
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2015, 06:38:47 PM »

This sounds like a "textbook" coil problem.  Could be something else, but I'd try a substitute coil.  You'll know if it was the coil about fifteen minutes after you fire it up with the sub in place.  :cool:

I had one behave the same way on a 1.5kw used GenSet.  Technicians at the shop where I bought it couldn't get it to run for more than seven minutes.  They were all younger guys and knew nothing about coils - sold me the GenSet for half their asking price because they couldn't make it run reliably.  I bought a $7 coil and slapped it on.  The thing ran very nicely for several years.  I eventually sold it and, for all I know, it is still running reliably.


canuck750

  • Guest
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2015, 07:39:02 PM »
Check the Voltage on the coil.
A Voltmeter will not always show the truth for example if the points are open it will show 12 Volts even with a high resistance to the coil, try a jumper from the battery to coil hot terminal.

With the points disconnected from the coil measure Ohms to chassis on the points terminal it should go from zero to infinity in a curve as the condenser charges when the points open.

Thanks Roy,

I don't think its the ignition switch, I tore it down and rebuilt it and the handlebar switch gear is off a Yamaha (NOS). As for the tach, the Veglia electronic tachs on the Eldo are notorious for crapping out, I have taken two apart and figured out why they die, cheap pot metal expands and fractures a plastic retainer disc that spins to indicate the rpm.

Coil is was new, guess the tach may have been the cause of failure. I have some other pressing projects right now (getting some KLR 650 street-trails ready for a trip to Inuvik) but I am going to try and do what you suggest (if I can figure out what you are telling me - no problem with your explanation - just my near total ignorance of all things electrical).

Whenever an electrical problem rears its head I think of the scene from Indian Jones when Ford opens the tomb and sees the floor moving, SNAKES, WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE SNAKES, I HATE SNAKES!.  I just never seem to be able to get my head around that invisible 'lectrical' stuff.

Online guzzista

  • Gaggle Hero
  • *****
  • Posts: 1070
  • Location: SF Bay Area
Re: Diagnostic Help Needed
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2015, 09:02:11 PM »
A long time ago ( 1977) I was having a similar problem with a my ex LAPD Ambo. Run for a while, soothy plugs, then died. Drove me nuts for months . In my case it turned out to be faulty  central accell pump/ body, which would leak and cause excessive rich running then bike would stop running due to soothy/fouled plugs . After replacing the entire pumps ( my dealer could / would only get me complete items) , the bike ran sweetly again. 
1975 750S Tribute bike, 1994 Cali 1100, 2007 Ducati GT1000, 1983 SP1000, 1973 V7Sport project, 2017 California1400 Touring


NEW WILDGUZZI PRODUCT - Moto Guzzi Door Mat
Receive donation credit with door mat purchase!
Advertise Here
 


NEW WILDGUZZI PRODUCT - Moto Guzzi Door Mat
Receive donation credit with door mat purchase!
Advertise Here