running the bike on the center stand in gear

[redrider90]

Oil flow is higher on the road because you have higher sustained rpm's.  Oil flow is a linear function of rpm.

Well then that proves my point when earlier in the thread I said I run my bike at a ranges between 1500-3000 RPMS for upwards of 10-15 minutes depending on the outside temp.  Now 3 K at 15 minutes is more than enough to produce temps and oil flow to heat the engine throughly.

[atavar]

That's nothing like the surges to 6-7K that you get on the road, and does not take in to account the heavier throttle openings (more fuel) needed to accomplish those rpms.
What none of this addresses is that you are introducing wear and stress on the engine by running it for nothing other than the sake of running it.  The life of an engine is measured in hours, not miles.  It is less damaging to let an engine sit static when filled with clean fluids than it is to "test run" it occasionally for some mythical benefit of warming it up occasionally. 
It also does not address the added expense of fuel and oil changes and filter changes performed with zero road miles.  At least I hope you are still changing the oil when you run the engine regularly. 
Of course this is my feeling, and I am not a mechanic, so please continue to do what gives you that warm fuzzy feeling. 

[oldbike54]

 Harv , how about this ? Since you live in the wilds of North Carolina and heat with wood , why not design a combination mill and splitter that is powered by the Millie . A simple roller design like a dyno should suffice . Kill two birds with one , er , well not a  "Stone" . Even better , since you are by the river , a small paddlewheeler powered by the Millie might be fun  Some of you smart guys help Harvey out here , c'mon , I know you want to 

 Dusty

[John A]

I used to have oil temp gauges on all my Guzzis. It takes an average of 30 miles for the oil temp to stabilize then it fluctuates from there according to the load on the engine. Of course when the ambient temp is higher it takes a little less time for the temp to stabilize. Now I don't monitor the temp, except to take it easy for the first 30 miles, instead I pay attention and look for things that will hurt me. For bikes that spend most of the time waiting to be ridden I just make sure they have clean oil and rotate the engine to move the valve springs once in a while, like has been mentioned. It proble doesn't hurt the engine to run it like the OP but would not do the drivetrain any favores

[luthier]

Jeezus, can't you leave the poor guy be?
OK he's been told not to run the gearbox on the centre stand, but if he wants to start the bike every now and then and warm it up a bit I can't see the harm.
I have been in the same kind of situation for a couple of years now with no riding possible for various reasons, but a really good going bike that I don't want to deteriorate for lack of riding.
I live up a long dirt track and have nobody I would trust to take it out through the 5 creek crossings to the tar, and I could do this myself if I had the time. Instead every month or so I start her and warm her till the rockers are hot to touch, maybe even take her half a K up the dirt and back to get the brakes all cleared of cobwebs. For me this is therapeutic and next month I'll be going on a proper ride, hopefully with a still reliable bike.
It's been a really long time between drinks guys, I won't bore you with the littany of reasons, but with our mate Redrider I have huge sympathy and his desire to ride would not be as strong if he couldn't hear that Guzzi growl even while on the stand, he wouldn't get that buzz and the forward thoughts that one day he would again be cruising down the road with that magic sound under him and the flight of the goose inspiring him.
Ask me how I understand these things. O sorry, I already told you.

[atavar]

Completely understood.  I can empathize with the situation where if I could not ride I would want to fondle and exercise the bike however I could.  This would certainly be for self maintenance and not necessarily for bike maintenance, but taking care of self is certainly a valid and meaningful motivation. 
Best of wishes to the OP and I hope you are able to ride again sooner than later!  Hang in there, we are pulling for you!

[redrider90]

That's nothing like the surges to 6-7K that you get on the road, and does not take in to account the heavier throttle openings (more fuel) needed to accomplish those rpms.
What none of this addresses is that you are introducing wear and stress on the engine by running it for nothing other than the sake of running it.  The life of an engine is measured in hours, not miles.  It is less damaging to let an engine sit static when filled with clean fluids than it is to "test run" it occasionally for some mythical benefit of warming it up occasionally. 
It also does not address the added expense of fuel and oil changes and filter changes performed with zero road miles.  At least I hope you are still changing the oil when you run the engine regularly. 
Of course this is my feeling, and I am not a mechanic, so please continue to do what gives you that warm fuzzy feeling.

I rarely run my bike to 6 or 7 K RPMS on the open road. I run my now sitting bike 4 to 5 times a year for 10-20 minutes at a time.  You say I am ruining the engine and need to change the oil regularly when I am not even running the bike regularly. I started it the other day to see how hot it got and on one cup of gas and that is the first time I had it running in 3 months. It started instantly and NO smoke whatsoever out of the pipes.   It is no myth that running the engine up to full operating temps rather than letting it set is good the for bike.  I also lube the cables and even with the engine off, turn the throttle, turn the bike on and use all electrical components, turning on the lights and turn signals,  operate the horn and 4 way flashers and use the clutch and  use the brakes at least once a month as well as charge the battery for 30 minutes once a month.  Then I run the engine or ruin the engine as you would say  the bike every 3 months until is is very hot. Now I have been sicker longer than I expected but lets just say one  cannot used their bike for 4 or 5 years. You say let it is better to let it sit and not touch it that run it up to operating temps 4 or 5 times a year? I make sure I run the carbs dry those few times a year I run the bike.
I might add that during this time I have also installed a new dashboard and dash lights and sockets and ready recently found new cans for the tack and speedo (wish I had them when I had the dash apart but they were not around). I also have  added new turn signals, bleed the brakes, installed new stanchion tubes on the fork,  with new ATF inside and new seals. I also changed a leaking gasket at the distributor, checked the timing at 5K per the manuel, and adjusted the valves. I also have added new rubber to the carbs and new gas lines and a new European light switch. My wife keeps complaining that I am always putting new rubber on the carbs.      And I have changed the oil and oil filter. The reason for an empty gas tank is I need to fix a slightly weepy petcock. I will then fill it with gas and not only keep out condensation out of the tank but have an extra five gallons of fuel during an ice storm for the generator. If I do not use the fuel in a year's times I will use it for the mower and replace it.   Now I do not expect that running (or ruining it as you say) my engine for a total of 2 hours a year is really ruining it. It is good to have the whole bike operating, not just the engine but electrical and brakes. My original post was about running the tranny specifically because Guzzi are shaft drives and I wondered if having the real wheel suspended and shifting it while running was a bad idea.
Mostly the responses I got was it is a bad idea so for the moment I will not run it through the gears. But I was not speeding up the engine when I shifted gears. I deliberately braked before I shifted at less than 1000 RPMs so as to not take up the slack at a higher RPM shift. I would think it would be a good thing to have the rear wheel turning and brake it a few times... keeping that piston/caliper doing what they were designed to do which is to not be static and also use the clutch and shifter mechanisms.
I do not intend to turn my bike into a barn find while I fight my ongoing battle with the after effects of Lyme disease.
If I do not  physically recover so I can ride again,  you will not see my advertisement saying running good when I last drove it 5 years ago. It will say bike has been "activated" electrically, brakes, and engine run a few times a year. Cables, shifters and other components lubed regularly. Carbs kept dry and gas used and changed regularly. If I was well I would not hesitate to get on this bike today and go for a 100 mile ride right now (fix the petcock first).  It does not need to be sorted out as you see with so many bikes that have been sitting for a couple of years.
All of what I do is for bike maintenance and not for my maintenance.

[atavar]

As I said, whatever makes you happy.  It is your bike, deal with it how you will.  I never said you were ruining your bike, I just said you were adding wear to the components.  I am happy everything is working out well for you.  Don't change a working system.  I hope you get well and can ride again!!!!!
Running an engine will add wear to the engine more than not running the engine will. 

[redrider90]

Running the engine total for  2 hours a year is not adding stress to the bike.I do not do it to make me happy. I am taking care of an engine and its operating components because I cannot put it on the road.  Maybe this would be a deal breaker for someone people if it were for sale.  They would rather find a bike that has just been sitting for years collecting dirt and rust.
I would love for someone show me an article that says running an engine 15 minutes 4 times a years is adding stress to the bike and it is bad for it vs letting the bike sit.

[oldbike54]

 Harvey , I still think you should use Millie like a stationary engine , no sense in wasting that gasoline .

  Dusty

[atavar]

You keep changing the words..  nobody said anything about stress.  Many have said things about wear.  When you have two moving parts rubbing against each other there is inevitable and unavoidable wear.  The more you rub those parts together the more those parts will wear.  This is plain and simple basic physics.

Many industries - perhaps the US military being the most notable - warehouse and store engines and other mechanical devices for decades at a time without use.  They do not find it productive to go and run those devices periodically.  They properly prepare them for storage, including corrosion preventative measures and proper storage containers. 

Again, if you find comfort and solace from occasionally hearing your engine run and feeling the warmth and vibration then more power to you.  I firmly support you doing whatever you want to with your bike and I fully accept that as a perfectly valid reason for holding on to a motorcycle.  Do whatever makes you happy and brings you peace.

[redrider90]

You keep changing the words..  nobody said anything about stress.  Many have said things about wear.  When you have two moving parts rubbing against each other there is inevitable and unavoidable wear.  The more you rub those parts together the more those parts will wear.  This is plain and simple basic physics.

Many industries - perhaps the US military being the most notable - warehouse and store engines and other mechanical devices for decades at a time without use.  They do not find it productive to go and run those devices periodically.  They properly prepare them for storage, including corrosion preventative measures and proper storage containers. 

Again, if you find comfort and solace from occasionally hearing your engine run and feeling the warmth and vibration then more power to you.  I firmly support you doing whatever you want to with your bike and I fully accept that as a perfectly valid reason for holding on to a motorcycle.  Do whatever makes you happy and brings you peace.

Running my bike 20 minutes X 4 times a year is not going to stress it, or wear it out or put under wear and tear on it. Plain an simple. I am working on my bike fixing numerous things as I go along. So of which require me to start it (OMG I am going to start my bike) like when I put in the new dizzy gasket and I had to make sure it was timed. I also set the valves and I had to make sure it ran well after that. I put a new dashboard on it and rewired the dash and needed to make sure it ran. So all those are good things that I needed to run the bike after I fixed.
But as my running it a few times a year it really is good smart thing to do because I do not want to leave it sit and turn it on have it leaking fuel from rotten hoses and seals that are have shrunk and brakes that have seized because they have not been used or electrical connections that have corroded from disuse. So really your posts about he US Army storing engines for 20 years has nothing to do with this poor little Guzzi guy who is working on his bike with his body lets him and keeps it running making sure it still works. I will not have my bike turn into a barn find.
Barn finds are often perfectly usable machines that are parked from some reason and never touched. They end up looking like crap, not running with dry rotted everything that needs to be replaced.
I am reminded of a friend who as a farmer in central Illinois. He had a house in the middle of nowhere. Now he could not rent the house cause it was to far from everywhere. So he would find a good family and let them live it in for free because he knew and empty house would fall in the ground in  matter of years. A house dies when it is not used and so does a motorcycle. Hell what is the first thing you think when you see a brand new bike that is 30 years old and is still in the crate. You cannot uncrate and take it out on the road. All the rubber is dry rotted and seals have shrunk and brakes are seized and lines are rusted or corroded. How many bikes have you seen that guys bought as collectors items and they warm them up and take them out for 15 or 20 mile run and put it up for 3 or 4 months? Why do they do that??? simple to keep the bike from shrinking in rot. The problem for me is I cannot take the bike out because of my illness so at least I find other ways to keep the bike from dry rotting and die the death of an unused barn find. I do not think I can simplify myself any better than I just did. There is not comfort of solace in what I do. I take care of my machinery. I have a perfectly fine 2002 Honda Civic and I make sure we drive it once a month somewhere just to make sure it gets used. It's the same thing.

[redrider90]

Harvey , I still think you should use Millie like a stationary engine , no sense in wasting that gasoline .

  Dusty

Well Dusty we are in a dry spell and my wife's garden is wilted. Would the group take kindly to me putting a PTO on it and using it to pump water out of the river for the garden. I am sure that Mille can push 70 feet of head and about 150 feet linear feet into a 2" plastic pipe.
Anybody ever used a Guzzi to drive a water pump? Maybe that will bring so more folks into the conversation.

[John A]

Now we're getting somewhere ! I think if you made a drum for the rear tire to turn and run a pump off that it would be good. Someone is bound to complain but I don't see why! I empathize with you on the disease , I have had MS since '77 or so. I had to put on a sidecar but it sure ain't like it used to be. Best wishes for a good recovery .

[redrider90]

Fuel hoses aren't going to shrink with rot because fuel isn't in them.

And I described hour you can protect seals.

Starting and driving Honda Civic monthly is a different thing then starting and idling an air cooled motor.

They said, though I already explained that you're not actually flying anything to benefit it. I also don't think you're necessarily harming it. As long as the oil is fresh and you dint have any compression problems caused by worn rings.

Still, send silly to me. Why do you have to adjust valves if you're not riding it? And if you're not going to ride it, why do you need to check your valve adjustment immediately anyway. And you can check the dash without starting it...

I think you're just trying to justify what you're doing.

Again, if it makes you feel earn and fuzzy fine.

I do not just idle the engine. If you read my thread I run it at varying speeds between 1 and 3 K RPMs. I only idle it when I shifted it. I run it up and get it good and hot.  So I get everything hot like it was designed to be. I even put a fan on it cause it gets real hot and I do not want to over heat it.
I adjusted the valves because they were due to be adjusted before I got sick. It was on my list of things to do to the bike. I rebuilt the dash cause it was cracked and in bad shape and it was on my list of things to do before I got sick. I already had the replacement dash waiting to be put on.  I replaced the stanchion tubes cause they were rusted and on my list of things to do before I got sick. I replace the dizzy gasket cause it was leaking  and on my list of things to do before I got sick. I put new turn signals on because it was on my list of things to do when I got sick. They were dry rotted and duct taped.  So does that answer you question? Does it help you understand that as I wait and hope to be strong enough to ride again I continue to work on my bike.  I fixed all these things cause well they needed to be fixed. Whether I ride it or have to sell it all these things needed to be fixed. 
Whoever said fuel hoses will shrink if there is no gas in them?  But if they do shrink and crack and you do not run gas through them then you will never know will you if they are dry rotted. I found I had a bad petcock after I ran it one day. It was due for it's 3 month run in. After I shut it off and ran the carbs dry 15 minutes later my wife smelled gas and I saw a bit of gas under the carb on the concrete.  I fired it up and ran it dry again. I realized that the petcock either needs a new internal gasket or I need a new petcock. I haven't taken it apart yet to figure which petcock I have. I also realized the carb also leaked which means it needs to be taken apart cause it probably is not seating. So that is now on my to do list. So even though I cannot physically take the bike out it still needs maintenance and I will keep it maintained. It has 55K on it. It needed some things to do when I got sick. So the least I can do is work on my bike as long as I am able. Might as well fix it. Maybe you think I should not fix my own bike cause what's the use of fixing a bike you cannot ride. Maybe I am do dumb to understand that reasoning.
And yes you are soooooo correct that I am trying to justify what I am doing.  I am justifying taking care of my bike. Goodness I must be one screwed up dude who thinks fixing his bike is the thing to do cause some day he plans on riding it again. I must need to see a good shrink eh fellas? 

[56Pan]

I do not just idle the engine. If you read my thread I run it at varying speeds between 1 and 3 K RPMs. I only idle it when I shifted it. I run it up and get it good and hot.  So I get everything hot like it was designed to be. I even put a fan on it cause it gets real hot and I do not want to over heat it.
I adjusted the valves because they were due to be adjusted before I got sick. It was on my list of things to do to the bike. I rebuilt the dash cause it was cracked and in bad shape and it was on my list of things to do before I got sick. I already had the replacement dash waiting to be put on.  I replaced the stanchion tubes cause they were rusted and on my list of things to do before I got sick. I replace the dizzy gasket cause it was leaking  and on my list of things to do before I got sick. I put new turn signals on because it was on my list of things to do when I got sick. They were dry rotted and duct taped.  So does that answer you question? Does it help you understand that as I wait and hope to be strong enough to ride again I continue to work on my bike.  I fixed all these things cause well they needed to be fixed. Whether I ride it or have to sell it all these things needed to be fixed. 
Whoever said fuel hoses will shrink if there is no gas in them?  But if they do shrink and crack and you do not run gas through them then you will never know will you if they are dry rotted. I found I had a bad petcock after I ran it one day. It was due for it's 3 month run in. After I shut it off and ran the carbs dry 15 minutes later my wife smelled gas and I saw a bit of gas under the carb on the concrete.  I fired it up and ran it dry again. I realized that the petcock either needs a new internal gasket or I need a new petcock. I haven't taken it apart yet to figure which petcock I have. I also realized the carb also leaked which means it needs to be taken apart cause it probably is not seating. So that is now on my to do list. So even though I cannot physically take the bike out it still needs maintenance and I will keep it maintained. It has 55K on it. It needed some things to do when I got sick. So the least I can do is work on my bike as long as I am able. Might as well fix it. Maybe you think I should not fix my own bike cause what's the use of fixing a bike you cannot ride. Maybe I am do dumb to understand that reasoning.
And yes you are soooooo correct that I am trying to justify what I am doing.  I am justifying taking care of my bike. Goodness I must be one screwed up dude who thinks fixing his bike is the thing to do cause some day he plans on riding it again. I must need to see a good shrink eh fellas? 

"I must need to see a good shrink eh fellas?"

You seem perfectly sane to me Red.

[Kev m]

Red,

I read and understood your method. Sorry about the term idle, I was distracted by the kids (wife's on an overnight shift) and typing on the phone I took a shortcut.

But I'm a stickler for the facts and recommendations.

Nothing about your method answers my objections to cold starts, warming without a load creating more acids. Etc.

If working on your bike is therapeutic, then have at it.

It doesn't change the fact that pickling it and leaving it alone (not running it) would generally be "better". And the repairs are best made when it's time to recommission the thing. Who knows what additional rot night occur between now and then anyway.

 But again, if it's" better " for you to do the opposite, have at it.

Might I respectfully add one thing. From observations of my own behavior and temperament when times have been tough, I suspect you're not really open to hearing our objections right now, and that's fine. And maybe taking our responses the wrong way. Mea-culpa for making it worse.

I debated whether or not I should jump in here. Guess I should have listened to myself.

I truly wish you the best. Heal well, and I hope the bike is ready and waiting for you at the other end.

When the time comes, ride safe.

Outta this one...

[Idontwantapickle]

Well Dusty we are in a dry spell and my wife's garden is wilted. Would the group take kindly to me putting a PTO on it and using it to pump water out of the river for the garden. I am sure that Mille can push 70 feet of head and about 150 feet linear feet into a 2" plastic pipe.
Anybody ever used a Guzzi to drive a water pump? Maybe that will bring so more folks into the conversation.

We start with a wheel without a tire. Weld up a frame to link it to the pump, maybe it could attach in place of the brake carrier on one side and a plate under the axle nut on the other. All we need now is a pulley and belt to run the pump and a big ass fan for the engine. One trip to agri-supply oughta do it!

 

Hunter

[oldbike54]

We start with a wheel without a tire. Weld up a frame to link it to the pump, maybe it could attach in place of the brake carrier on one side and a plate under the axle nut on the other. All we need now is a pulley and belt to run the pump and a big ass fan for the engine. One trip to agri-supply oughta do it!

 
 
Hunter

 There ya go Harvey . Remember , like Roper says , the old 2 valvers are really just ditch pumps .

  Dusty

[rodekyll]

We start with a wheel without a tire. Weld up a frame to link it to the pump, maybe it could attach in place of the brake carrier on one side and a plate under the axle nut on the other. All we need now is a pulley and belt to run the pump and a big ass fan for the engine. One trip to agri-supply oughta do it!

 

Hunter

Awww.  I lost all respect for you when you took the tire/tube off the wheel and then had to look around for a pulley/belt.     It's a natural solution begging for a problem, I tell ya!

[Triple Jim]

That river isn't very deep.  I bet you could get the Mille on its centerstand out in the middle, wind it up in 5th, and darned near reach the garden with the rooster tail.  A sand-dragster rear tire could increase range if necessary.

[oldbike54]

That river isn't very deep.  I bet you could get the Mille on its centerstand out in the middle, wind it up in 5th, and darned near reach the garden with the rooster tail.  A sand-dragster rear tire could increase range if necessary.

 OH DAMN , please take video Jim 

  Dusty

[redrider90]

That river isn't very deep.  I bet you could get the Mille on its centerstand out in the middle, wind it up in 5th, and darned near reach the garden with the rooster tail.  A sand-dragster rear tire could increase range if necessary.

Jim,
Being the good engineer you are it's time to go back to the drawing board. Your design described above is fine when the Eno River looks like the first photo but the river can  can get out of hand on sometimes.  Then what happens to my Red Italian Stallion when the Eno roars as seen in the 2nd photo?  Time for a new design if I  am going to have a dual purpose pumper 1. one for the tame Eno 2. and one when the Eno is raging. 
Dusty is going to have to wait on the upgraded design. 





[URL=http://s1318.photobucket.com/user/redrider901/media/DSCF9454_zpseuw0eckp.jpg.html]

[Triple Jim]

We'll wheel it down to the river only on the days when the level is right.  After all, when the river is flooded, you're probably not short of rain water in the garden anyway. 

[oldbike54]

 There was an enterprising Scotsman who built a small motorbike powered barge to provide transport
to his home some miles up a Loch .

 Dusty