2012 Norge 8v valve clearance

[toolittletime]

I have searched the service manual for the 2012 Norge 8v and found a valve clearance of .15mm inlet and .20 exhaust for the valve settings. The engine has "AA" on the plate down by the oil fill hole. Are these the correct settings??

Thanks...........Ti m

[Vasco DG]

Roller or flat tappet?

Pete

[toolittletime]

Won't know till I open her up!!!

[Vasco DG]

While I haven't heard of any change suggested from the factory which would suggest that  six and eight thou is still the recommendation I can tell you from observation that the gaps on the roller engines open up a LOT as the engine warms up. So much so that you could actually run a negative clearance cold and still have a few thou when the engine gets hot!

I have done a variety of experimentation on my bike and found that if I used 6 & 8 when it got hot they were opening up to 10 & 12 and that was after I'd pulled off the rocker covers allowing for a couple of minutes of cooling down prior to measurement.

I'm currently running 3 & 5 with no issues and using the same checking method they are opening up to about 6 & 8 when hot.

I have been told, perhaps by Steve, that the factory specifies 4 & 6 now but I haven't seen any bulletin on such. If you are running the factory map 4 & 6 will be fine on a roller motor.

Pete

[guzzied]

My 2014 Norge has a sticker under the seat with the specs saying .15mm intake, .20 exhaust.  I have roller followers on my bike.

Mike

[toolittletime]

Here's a pic of the valves....looks flat to me.......so .15 and .20 respectively??? And yes it is running the factory map.....and running excellent.

[Vasco DG]

Nah, other end of the rockers my friend. The tappets are the bits that run on the cams.

Here is what a flat tappet cam box looks like. The thing I'm pointing to is the tops of the tappets. In this case you can see the exhaust is almost flush with the top of the cambox whereas the inlet is about 1mm proud. This is a sign the tappets are knackered.



And the roller set up looks like this.



I'll see if I can find another one. Here ya go, from the Cali 1400 manual but all the roller systems look the same.



Pete

[guzzied]

The 2014 owners manual states that the cams have roller followers, not sure about the years before. I checked my valves at 950 mile mark and the exhaust valves were spot on, the intake valves were at 7 thou. across the board, I reset them at 6 thou.  So, I do believe the new roller followers are really working well in my opinion.

Mike

[Vasco DG]

I believe that the 1200's began to get rollers some time late in the 2012 build and at least here they started appearing in the country in early to mid 2013. By 2014 all 8V's were roller equipped.

Pete

[canuguzzi]

According to Piaggio, Roller tappets are in the following engines.

Stelvio AC : After AC12596 03/12/2012
Griso A8 :    After 13524     04/12/2012 
Norge AA :  After 12214     04/18/2012

Considering then those engines actually got fitted and in bikes shipped to dealers, 3rd-4th qtr 2012 is about right for most.

[Claesson]

How about the flat tappet engines?   .10 inlet .15 exhaust?

Frendy

[Vasco DG]

Flat tappet six and eight as stated above.

[toolittletime]

Yes , I do indeed have rollers on my 2012.  Got them adjusted with little fanfare today using Pete's settings above. I have set valves on my Bassa , but this is my first on an 8v. Took about 1.5 hours start to finish. Changed all fluids, tightened fasteners, and a lot more in about 4 hours today. I was planning to take it to the shop (120 miles away) until I called. Apparently they are taking reservations for late September. Normally I would have them do the valves, and I would do everything else, but with the drive....the wait....Just did it myself. Thanks for all the help, especially Pete!!!

Tim

[Vasco DG]

Next step is download Guzzidiag and buy the cables and get a Morgan Carbtune. Then you can tune it properly as well.

Pete

[MLR]

While I haven't heard of any change suggested from the factory which would suggest that  six and eight thou is still the recommendation I can tell you from observation that the gaps on the roller engines open up a LOT as the engine warms up. So much so that you could actually run a negative clearance cold and still have a few thou when the engine gets hot!

I have done a variety of experimentation on my bike and found that if I used 6 & 8 when it got hot they were opening up to 10 & 12 and that was after I'd pulled off the rocker covers allowing for a couple of minutes of cooling down prior to measurement.

I'm currently running 3 & 5 with no issues and using the same checking method they are opening up to about 6 & 8 when hot.

I have been told, perhaps by Steve, that the factory specifies 4 & 6 now but I haven't seen any bulletin on such. If you are running the factory map 4 & 6 will be fine on a roller motor.

Pete

Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but I always thought valve clearance shrank as the engine heats up. Thought that was the reason exhaust valves always have more clearance than intakes.

[Vasco DG]

On most motors? Yes. It's all down to relative rates of expansion of the different components and different materials. Obviously with the Roller top end 8V the valves and tappet assemblies *Grow* less than the cambox castings.

Pete

[MLR]

Thanks. Even though I just set my valves you've got me tempted to tighten them up to .004 & .006. Does it seem to reduce the top end clatter any? Also, do you not recommend doing this if we are running one of Mark's engine maps?

[Vasco DG]

If you're running one of Mark's flat tappet maps I'd say leave everything as it is at the moment. I've found out the the cam profiles must be fairly significantly different for the flat tappet and roller tappet cams. That's catered for with the stock mapping with lambda on as, crude though it is, the system will trim around the change. With an open loop map the change is immediately obvious and very noticeable. My bike running Mark's Mistral Hi-Pipe with dB killer map which was simply outstanding in flat tappet form runs into a brick wall at wide throttle openings above six grand, especially in the lower gears now that it's been rollerised.

I'm rollerising Mark's bike soon and at that point there will be the opportunity for me to graph both systems to ascertain what the profile differences are and once that is done current maps can be revised so a library can be built up for both flat and roller tappet machines.

As it is Mark has built maps for a couple of roller tappet models, the 1200 Sport being one, but AFAIK the Stelvio's aren't in that select group. What we do know is that the 8V motor is very sensitive to changes in valve timing as altered by lash gap or wear. 90% of people who have had problems after loading a Beetlemap have those problems due to poor set up and tuning, valve lash inaccuracy is one of the common problems. Failing tappets is another. Once they wear even microscopically performance drops off appreciably.

My advice to you at the moment would stick with what you've got. Once new maps are developed we'll suggest a roller clearance to run them with.

Pete

[56Pan]

On most motors? Yes. It's all down to relative rates of expansion of the different components and different materials. Obviously with the Roller top end 8V the valves and tappet assemblies *Grow* less than the cambox castings.

Pete

I'm a little confused here, Pete.  The roller top ends grow less than the cambox castings in comparison to the solid lifter top ends?  Is this due to less friction/heat created with the roller top ends?  You said it was obvious, but I'm missing it.  Thanks.

[Vasco DG]

The roller assemblies would seem to expand less, or at least differently, to the flat tappet and pushrod pairing. That means that as the cambox casting expands the relative expansion of the tappet is less resulting in a bigger gap. Larger surface area of the roller tappet and its mode of operation may also mean it runs cooler. Frankly I don't know why the gaps open up so much with the roller tappet set up but I do know that it happens.

Pete

[56Pan]

The roller assemblies would seem to expand less, or at least differently, to the flat tappet and pushrod pairing. That means that as the cambox casting expands the relative expansion of the tappet is less resulting in a bigger gap. Larger surface area of the roller tappet and its mode of operation may also mean it runs cooler. Frankly I don't know why the gaps open up so much with the roller tappet set up but I do know that it happens.

Pete

Makes sense.  Thanks.