2016 Indian Scout 60

[Chuck in Indiana]

I like the ballast idea better.. 

[Kev m]

Unless things have changed , the manufacturers don't actually weigh their bikes . The published weights are based on target weights provided by the engineers for each individual component . This is why published weights are almost always lighter than real world poundage . (Kiloage?)

  Dusty

Actually this came up in another thread recently.

Over the last few years I've noticed more and more manufacturers quoting curb (kerb) weight or "wet" weight, not dry weight.

Might be that one legislating body required it and once they have to publish the data there's no reason trying to hide it.

I dunno, but I'm seeing more and more wet weights.

[oldbike54]

Actually this came up in another thread recently.

Over the last few years I've noticed more and more manufacturers quoting curb (kerb) weight or "wet" weight, not dry weight.

Might be that one legislating body required it and once they have to publish the data there's no reason trying to hide it.

I dunno, but I'm seeing more and more wet weights.

 My statement has nothing to do with dry/wet weight . The published weight is not accurate because it is
based on the combined target weights of every component , not the actual poundage of the complete vehicle .
In other words , if the vehicle uses 100 components , and the target weight of each component is 4 lbs , then
the published weight is 400 lbs . In reality , at least some of the components will weigh more 4 lbs . It is true that modern manufacturing techniques have reduced the difference .



  Dusty

 Edit , so the published dry weight and the published kerb weights are low by the same amount in a given vehicle .

[Kev m]

My statement has nothing to do with dry/wet weight . The published weight is not accurate because it is based on the combined target weights of every component , not the actual poundage of the complete vehicle . In other words , if the vehicle uses 100 components , and the target weight of each component is 4 lbs , then the published weight is 400 lbs . In reality , at least some of the components will weigh more 4 lbs . It is true that modern manufacturing techniques have reduced the difference .

  Dusty

WHAT???

I've never heard that before.

I'm not entirely sure I believe that without further documentation.

Why in God's name would a manufacturer not weigh their final product (even if that was before fluids and battery)?

Edit - I'm specifically referencing EU manufacturers like BMW who have started to refer to "kerb" weight as wet weight. And have referenced an industry standard in their footnotes.

[oldbike54]

WHAT???

I've never heard that before.

I'm not entirely sure I believe that without further documentation.

Why in God's name would a manufacturer not weigh their final product (even if that was before fluids and battery)?

 The question has been much discussed for years , why published weight was always less than actual real poundage . If the manufacturers bothered to weigh their bikes why the obvious lie . So , after years of wondering why , and asking several supposed experts and receiving no satisfactory answer , a MC engineer wrote a letter to CW explaining what was really happening . That triggered another round of questioning by me , and an engineer friend told me that is common practice with boats , boat engines , cars , hell , even diesel locomotives .

  Dusty

[Poncho]

if you add up all my parts, I should weigh.. not so much. but somehow I do.. it must be the fluids?:beer:

[Kev m]

 That's all well and good, but was that in the last 2 years or so or before?

Cause I'm saying this change to manufacturers starting to list "kerb" or wet weights is that recent.

Before that we called dry weights "lie weights".

[oldbike54]

 Oh , and Kevm , manufacturers get caught , er , fibbing all of the time , or heralding some wonderful capability of a new MC that simply isn't accurate . Remember the R6 Yamaha from a few years back that redlined at a published X number of RPM's (16,000 ?) . Turns out the tachs were way out of whack , by almost 2K RPM's . How did they miss that ?

  Dusty

[oldbike54]

That's all well and good, but was that in the last 2 years or so or before?

Cause I'm saying this change to manufacturers starting to list "kerb" or wet weights is that recent.

Before that we called dry weights "lie weights".

 Once again , either I am not explaining this well , or you aren't really listening . The Kerb weight and dry weight are both light by the same amount . When real world dry testing is done , the published weight is almost always low by at least 20 lbs , often more . Wet weight testing reveals the same discrepancy . In other words , both the dry and kerb weights are always low , so either the manufacturers are simply lying knowing they will get caught , or the two engineers I referenced are correct .

  Dusty

[Kev m]

Once again , either I am not explaining this well , or you aren't really listening . The Kerb weight and dry weight are both light by the same amount . When real world dry testing is done , the published weight is almost always low by at least 20 lbs , often more . Wet weight testing reveals the same discrepancy . In other words , both the dry and kerb weights are always low , so either the manufacturers are simply lying knowing they will get caught , or the two engineers I referenced are correct .

  Dusty

You're not explaining it, OR YOU'RE NOT LISTENING.

as you know I'm a spec junky.

Till recently I logged dry weights from OEM specs and wet weights from aftermarket sources that actually weight them.

Then in the last year or two I've started to see the OEM dry weight specs go away or at least be accompanied by new wet or "kerb" weights (the latter specifically referencing some standard I've not come across before that seems new) and the latter wet/kerb weights are corresponding to aftermarket weights.

Something has changed with regards to reporting from OEMS.

As for catching an OEM in a lie. I never assume it's gospel, but one lie doesn't mean the rest did too and just got away with it.

[Kev m]

Never mind Kev , you aren't even attempting to understand what I am saying .

  Dusty

Ditto man.

Actually no. F that. I totally hear you.

You're saying they have traditionally published a theoretical weight that is the sum of all parts (at the weights they've logged). But that fails to take into consideration any variances in production. Yes?

The difference is that you're claiming the wet weights they've started to publish are similarly low. And I disagree.

I'm saying that MAY HAVE BEEN TRADITIONALLY TRUE AND I'VE ALWAYS ACCEPTED THEIR PUBLISHED WEIGHTS WOULD BE OFF BECAUSE OF IT.

But something changed in the last year or two. Manufacturers that NEVER (in my experience) published WET weights have started doing so. That they've started to reference a new standard that I've not researched, but not seen before. And that those numbers seem to agree with independent sources that are weighing them.

I'm dying something seems to have changed. And that the change seems to have addressed it.

But to complicate matters the new standard might be with 1/2 tank of fuel or something like that. At least I thought I saw that reference. If that's true it might account for a variance of 10-20# at full fueled weight no?

Anyway, all I really care about are numbers that can be compared relatively apples to apples. I'm not expecting peer reviewed science to the gram.

[krglorioso]

All this techno-squabbling aside, I commend Indian for bringing out a pretty large bike, Made in USA, for an MSRP of $9K.  I hope they sell well and give Harley a run for the money.  That said, I'm on the road a lot on the job and have seen only two new Chiefs on the roads of California.  Maybe the rest are all at the Rock Store.

Ralph

[Aaron D.]

I saw a whole bunch more Indians than Guzzis this summer. Yes, I do look for Indians but I look for Guzzis too.

[Poncho]

All this techno-squabbling aside, I commend Indian for bringing out a pretty large bike, Made in USA, for an MSRP of $9K.  I hope they sell well and give Harley a run for the money.  That said, I'm on the road a lot on the job and have seen only two new Chiefs on the roads of California.  Maybe the rest are all at the Rock Store. Ralph

I have one them new NA chieftain. I put my money down May 013 and picked it up in Nov. S/N 837. the first ride home from the dealer was a tad over 3k smiles from Lincoln Nb to Tx, but included a detour down  the Blue Ridge and Natchez Trace parkways. It took me 10 daze, mostly because I could not stop anywhere there were bikes parked as I would be overwhelmed with pesky bikers and pelted with questions. I should have printed a FAQ sheet and just handed them out?

This being my defacto Tour Bike only (I do not ride it in the city) in 2 yrs I have only rode it 5 times for a measley 16k smiles. I do see more of these NA on the road here in Tejas, but they still are few and far between. we now have 8 dealers am aware of. 3 within hour of me. From what I read there should be a boat load of these on the road next year.. somebody has got to tell me how to post pix here. poncho 

[Triple Jim]

Check the top post in the FAQ section of the board.

[kirby1923]

Back when I was in the aircraft engine business I had a guy that worked for me that was one of the principles in a very successful aircraft kit business.
He used to say that the performances of our competitors were usually "optimistic" at best and that the performance and weights of their machines were "measured at the brochure"!

I think there is allot of truth in that because if your a company and you publish the weight and performance it has to measure up to your competition. So everybody in the Moto business were publishing the  "best case" or most impressive numbers to look good to the consumer.

When some of the manufacturers started to publish the actual "wet weight" it allowed others to do the same so to level the field.
Now wet/kerb? weight and are becoming the new standard.

"bout time.
:-)

[Poncho]

Edited a couple of posts , please refrain from using racist terms , thanks .   Dusty

ob54, I may not be aware of what you refer to as racist terms? poncho

[Poncho]

OK , I get that . No real problem , but now that you are aware ...   Dusty

ahh,, now I get it.. PC stuff. fixed poncho

[Poncho]

We are an all inclusive bunch and need to be aware of that . Thanks for understanding    Dusty

so your saying no Italian jokes even if we are regarding these bikes?.. dang and I married one of them,, once.was enuff.

[DudenLA]

Our local dealer in LA had a tent sale this last weekend so I went to look at the Indian Scout in person.  Really nice.  I will say that as a shorter rider it's kinda nice to be able to fully flatfoot a motorcycle with both feet 

I thought seriously about trading in my V7 but instead I did what I promised myself I would do when I get a "new bike" urge.... I went out for a long ride on the V7 and it cured me of the craving (until next time).

I keep telling myself that when I have the urge to buy the next new shiny thing that it would be better to 1) just go for a ride on my bike, 2) sign up for a weekend of advanced training and 3) get some upgrades for the bike.  In the long run, it is much cheaper to do these three things than to chase the elusive everything bike. 

Since the Indian dealer in LA is also Eagle Rider rentals a salesman told me that I could rent the Scout for a few days down the line if I really need to scratch that itch.  Hmmmmmm.

[JProdun]

Anyone looked at the prices on accessories? You could spend more then the bike's msrp by just fitting some louder pipes and a dual seat!

[Kev m]

Anyone looked at the prices on accessories? You could spend more then the bike's msrp by just fitting some louder pipes and a dual seat!

Overstate much?

Last time I checked prices weren't much different than Guzzi.

Aren't Agostinis around $1k even without a reflash?

OEM seats are a couple of hundred?

[Aaron D.]

Indian accessories are quite high in my opinion, but mostly of decent quality.

The Scout OEM bags look like soft bags but are hard bags trimmed in leather-and cost a lot more than say, a set of Osprey bags that mount in similar fashion. I'd get those instead if I were to do it over.

I see they sell a set of Fox shocks, $900-also seems high.

But as Kev says, it's the same with OEM accessories anyway. And louder pipes-really?

[Kev m]

I guess I could see where JP got that sticker shock. I mean, obviously exaggerated but still on the website they have "kits" which include a number of accessories. The 2-up touring kits are a little over $3k. Now that includes a ton of stuff, leather saddlebags ($100), touring seats and backrests for rider and passenger, windshield, etc.

That's NOT cheap, but it only take a $11k bike to a little over $14k.

Aren't the Touring saddlebags around $1k if you buy them for the Cali Custom?

How about the $1k+ topcase for the Cali?

Switching seats and adding a topcase and luggage to a Custom will yield the same sort of pricing.

How about adding a Agostinis and a Record fairing to a Racer?

Hell just adding HBs and racks and a centerstand and euro sidestand and sliders and seat and shocks and sump extender to my V7 I'm at $2800 not including the value of the free Dart Marlin I acquired (or the other free Dart Classic Jay loaned me and I loaned to Nick lol).

I think I've already said that I normally spend about $2-3k in accessories on every bike I own for any length of time.

I spent WAY more than that on the Jackal, like I actually DID exceed the price I paid for the Jackal, but I got it pretty cheap considering age/mileage.

[jas67]

 :1: to Kev's comments.

My shopping list for my recently-purchased V7 Special is over $2k, and includes sump extender,  frame sliders, luggage racks (already have the luggage), seat, Agostini exhaust, shocks, and other smaller items.

Aftermarket muffers for V7s are $600-$1,200/pair.    Hepco & Becker side cases + mounts will set you back around $800.   Better shocks start around $350, and go up over $1,000.

You want sticker shock, price out some of the "Guzzi Garage" kits.    I don't see any prices on the website, but, you can bet they're not inexpensive.

[charlie b]

I keep telling myself that when I have the urge to buy the next new shiny thing that it would be better to 1) just go for a ride on my bike, 2) sign up for a weekend of advanced training and 3) get some upgrades for the bike.  In the long run, it is much cheaper to do these three things than to chase the elusive everything bike. 

Yep, that's what I do.  Just when I think I need a new bike, I get on mine.  After 100miles then I don't want a new one anymore.  I also realize that there is not a current bike that is what I want.

Helps too when I start adding up the cost of a newer bike.  Makes spending another $500 on mine a bargain.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Yep, that's what I do.  Just when I think I need a new bike, I get on mine.  After 100miles then I don't want a new one anymore.  I also realize that there is not a current bike that is what I want.

Helps too when I start adding up the cost of a newer bike.  Makes spending another $500 on mine a bargain.

This. I could put a *lot* of money in a new V9 and not have anything that I'd like better than the Aero Lario.

[JProdun]

Yep. You got it right Kev!

Guzzi accessories aren't cheap at all, but they way I look at it is probably the same way everybody does. I'm looking at what I will need to invest ot make the bike suit myself. While I've already spent quite a penny on the V7, when I look at the Scout, it seems that I'd have to spend a lot more :). Like the bike. A lot. But doesn't look like it will happen in my life at this point.

And yes, Guzzi Garage prices are not any better. Especially that high 2 into 1 Arrow. That's like third of what I've paid for the bike.

[jas67]

Price BMW accessories sometime 

For 2016 R1200R:

GPS: $799 (doesn't include "GPS" preparation that is required to hook it up, that is part of the >$3k "Premium Package").
Touring (Side) Cases: $1,043
Small Top Case: $587
Inner bags for touring cases: $252
Inner bag for small top base: $76
Tank Bag: $315
LED Driving lights: $719 !?!?!?!?
Engine Crash Guards: $462
Windshields that start at $362
Akropovic "Sport Silencer": $1,447

Mind you, this is on top of a motorcycle that is $15-$17k depending on "package" selection.