Help with starter starter issue, (CBX) but you guys are smart!!

[Skyguyz]

Solenoid test, video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cvOGdECblg&feature=youtu.be


So, I took out my 1979 CBX today and all went well until i got home. Switched off bike, opens garage door, tried to start bike and acted like low battery volts, will not start but cranks "A little." Has new battery so I check Volts, 13.35 volts. Hum, So I suspect starter solenoid. I hook up OHM meter to the Batt and starter terminal on solenoid. Add electrical power to bike, push start button and "One click" is heard from solenoid and it definitely feels like internal plunger is working. I hook up OHM meter and hold start button, (No start, just one click from solenoid) OHM meter reads close to zero. This indicates good solenoid? yes/no???

I check continuity from solenoid to starter motor via the cable, good continuity.

Reasons why won't turn:

- Battery discharge - No.batt volts fine.

-Faulty neutral switch - Tested with bike in gear and in neutral. Solenoid does not click when in gear, clicks once when in neutral with green neutral light on.  So no.

-Faulty ignition switch - Unsure. The start button works (*Yes, the run switch was always in run during tests.) So ???

-Faulty start switch - Unsure, it appears fine because the solenoid makes a very positive one click and the OHM's are close to zero.

-faulty solenoid - doubtful. *See test above.

-Neutral diode open - unsure how to test this or where to even begin?

-loose wire - unsure, tested the continuity from solenoid to starter motor - fine.


So, does anyone have any good wild guesses as to why the starter motor will not turn?


Thanks in advance to all who respond. And, yes, I know this a "Guzzi" forum but I have had the best success here when it comes to anything bike related.

Sky

[oldbike54]

 New battery or not , have it load tested . Always always always start there .

 Dusty

[Skyguyz]

New battery or not , have it load tested . Always always always start there .

 Dusty

Went to auto zone with Battery, (Motorcycle shops closed here on Sunday.) Guy said the machine can't test load on a motorcycle battery without explanation???

Went home, Took a battery out of my MV Augusta F4, (Started F4 first to test cranking and it cranks hard,) put that battery in CBX and.......Nada! Just the same old one click solenoid.

Good suggestion though!

Sky

[oldbike54]

 Is it possible to get a probe on the starter motor positive post to check for juice when the button is pushed ?

 Dusty

[Skyguyz]

Is it possible to get a probe on the starter motor positive post to check for juice when the button is pushed ?

 Dusty

Not without taking apart a whole lotta bike.

 I then took my voltmeter and grounded the black lead to the solenoid neg wire, took the red positive lead of voltmeter and clipped to the output side of solenoid going to starter. when I push the starter button, the volts read 10.41, (When I took the black negative lead of voltmeter and grounded to Neg on batt the volts read 12 .8 when start button pressed.) 10.4 -12.8 volts, The solenoid was putting out good volts on the output to the starter. The starter wire was checked for continuity. the starter should have cranked, *Yes, bike in neutral and run switch to run.

[Kiwi_Roy]

You swapped the battery out and it still didn't work so I assume you also scraped the battery posts
Always apply Vaseline to the battery posts after you scrape them, it will protect the lead surface for several years.

The bike can do it's own load test

Do some Voltage tests and post the results back here

A) Starter motor terminal to chassis while you try to start -  should read close to 12V

B) Battery + to chassis while you try to start - should also read close to 12V

C) Battery - to chassis while you try to start - should read just slightly negative, say -0.1 to 0.3V

What we are trying to determine in the tests is if there is excessive Voltage drop somewhere in the circuit.


Actually I see you have done most of that, 10 Volts across the starter motor should have had it spinning pretty good.
I don't know anything about those starters but I have seen starters with bushes for bearings when the bushes get worn the armature rubbing on the magnets, perhaps pull it apart and look for shinny spots.

I took a look at the CBX starter repair kit, the motor has ball races, so-much for my worn bush theory
Sorry you will have to wait for a CBX expert.
Meanwhile test A, B & C won't hurt.

[steamdriven NZ]

I repaired a friends CX400 starter that had worn bushes and was contacting the outer case. Same symptoms. The repair kit may include ball race bearings as either a. a mod to fix this for good or b. be for a later / superceded model.
Just thinking the original may be bushed?
Just askin. 

[Mike Tashjian]

I would bypass the solenoid and power the starter direct with battery jumper cables. It will either work or not.  I realize the starter is probably buried behind the engine but you may be going that way very quickly. Just jump from the battery positive to the solenoid starter side cable.  You can jump from the negative battery side onto the engine case just to prove the ground side is also good. That is about as direct as you can get before removing the starter.  Mike

[not-fishing]

I would bypass the solenoid and power the starter direct with battery jumper cables. It will either work or not.  I realize the starter is probably buried behind the engine but you may be going that way very quickly. Just jump from the battery positive to the solenoid starter side cable.  You can jump from the negative battery side onto the engine case just to prove the ground side is also good. That is about as direct as you can get before removing the starter.  Mike

This!!!

Eliminate the Starter then move on to other things.

On a side not the V50 I'm working on wouldn't start when hot.  I pulled the starter and found enough rust in it to bind the starter armature once it got hot.  Just an Inconvenient Truth of a 37 year old machine that spent to much time in a moist area.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Note" It's no use testing the wires with an Ohmmeter, they are not sensitive enough, 0.25 Ohms wouldn't pass enough current to turn the motor

Better to test with a Voltmeter or even a test light for the Voltage to arrive
Connect one lead to the chassis then test at other points while you try starting until you find a point where the Voltage is low.
Test the battery Negative looking for a high Voltage (it should be low)

Pull the starter apart and take pictures we might spot the problem.

[acogoff]

     A lot of Hondas have a dedicated 30 amp fuse mounted right on the magnetic start switch(solenoid) in a rubber holder, but then the ones I am familiar with are 20 years newer. The CBX parts book does shows two odd looking figures in that area they call fuses.

[Skyguyz]

Ok, So my limited knowledge of worn out starters prevented my from testing the starter directly early on, (*As per the suggestion here.) I was able to

remove the starter and bench test it with a direct connect battery. Well, well, well.....It spun right away when I put the juice to it. This was perplexing as I

 thought for sure the starter was the issue. I put the juice to the starter a couple more times and presto-change, it didn't respond!

I tried putting the juice to it several more times and it was intermittent. sometimes it spun and sometimes it didn't.

   I disassembled the starter and saw that the brushes were very worn and the internals were very dirty. I cleaned it up a bit and rotated the brushes.

It now spun every time. I think the reason it wouldn't run while in the bike, the voltage was reduced to 10.5 volts from the solenoid to the starter. When I

 benched tested it the voltage was 13.3 directly from a battery. I could order a starter refurbish kit and that would probably work but I found a completely

 rebuilt one for a very good price and ordered it.

Hindsight:

- I should have tried to put a direct line from the battery to the starter but it was a very tight space.

- After having high confidence that it was the solenoid despite all the proper testing I did on the solenoid, I should have realized the solenoid was fine.

I don't think I could have figured it out so quickly without the help of all the good advise here on this forum.

Thanks for all who chimed in and helped me out.


Sky

[Kiwi_Roy]

Did you take a picture, I haven't seen the insides of a Honda starter?

Probably it's first maintenance in 38 years 

[DARKHORSE]

There is indeed a 30 amp fuse at the starter solenoid but its a strip of metal held by two screws. This has been a weak point on the starting system when I had my CBX. You could replace that with a modern fuse equivelant and that could save some headaches down the line. Have a close look at that fuse. Tom.