Dell'Orto PHF36 on 850 Eldorado

[jas67]

The motor is nearly ready to go back in my 1974 Eldorado.
It came equipped with Amal carbs.

The wear on the engine internals was consistent with fairly high miles, so, without even running the Amal carbs, I'm going to assume that they're pretty worn.   Knowing that they're not great carbs to begin with, and are especially crappy when the slides get worn, I'm not going even bother putting any money into rebuilding them.

That said, I'm looking at the Dell'Orto PHF30 or PHF36 as a good way to go, due to the wide availability of parts for them.
The cams now have the B10 grind, which, from my research is what was used in the LM1000.   I'd like to go new, rather than starting with a different set of potentially worn-out carbs.

My friend/machinist/long time Guzzi, Ducati, and overall motorcycle expert, recommended going with 34-36mm carbs for this build.

Has anyone here used the PHF36 on an Eldorado?    If my research is correct, these are the carbs used on the 850 LeMans.   Of course, the 850 Le Mans has bigger valves and a different cam than my motor.   Any thoughts on whether this would be a good fit, or would I be better served by the PHF30?

I did find this page on Greg Bender's site mentioned in another Dell'Orto post.    Any other tips on fitting these carbs to my Eldo?

MGCycle has new PHF36 carbs in stock, so, that's a big plus for the 36.

[guzziownr]

I have 36's on my 950cc Eldo w/'79 SP motor.  I used the LeMans 2 Euro jetting they came with, Delrin manifolds and altered side covers (cut and stepped out).

If you want to try a very clean set of '30s I would suggest contacting Mr. C. Mullandore at Antietam Classic Cycle.  I'm sure they would be indistinguishable from new apart from the price.  http://www.antietamclassiccycle.com/

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Since you already have the proper manifolds, why not a set of Keihin PWK knock-offs?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carburetors-30mm-replace-Del-Lorto-30s-or-Amal-Ducati-Moto-Guzzi-/361557715052?hash=item542e84e86c%3Am%3AmDF9UvC6tpwv7lAoFBSOGVw&_trkparms=pageci%253A6e74743e-ac31-11e7-9114-74dbd1800766%257Cparentrq%253Afc4c0e3a15e0a9e8483619effffdfde0%257Ciid%253A33



Mike Tiberio runs these with excellent results.

IMO, with stock displacement, even with a B10 grind cam, you really don't need more than 30s.

[Mike Harper]

An equally  important thing to consider for a fast Eldorado  is how good it stops. The Eldorado brakes are barely sufficient if working perfectly with a stock engine.

[Turin]

$225.00 for a set of new carbs is a smoking deal !

I briefly thought about hopping up my ambo. Mikes point is what held me back.

[jas67]

An equally  important thing to consider for a fast Eldorado  is how good it stops. The Eldorado brakes are barely sufficient if working perfectly with a stock engine.

Very true.   It's getting dual discs up front; already have all the parts including the spacer to mount the second rotor.

Since you already have the proper manifolds, why not a set of Keihin PWK knock-offs?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Carburetors-30mm-replace-Del-Lorto-30s-or-Amal-Ducati-Moto-Guzzi-/361557715052?hash=item542e84e86c%3Am%3AmDF9UvC6tpwv7lAoFBSOGVw&_trkparms=pageci%253A6e74743e-ac31-11e7-9114-74dbd1800766%257Cparentrq%253Afc4c0e3a15e0a9e8483619effffdfde0%257Ciid%253A33


Mike Tiberio runs these with excellent results.

IMO, with stock displacement, even with a B10 grind cam, you really don't need more than 30s.

Hmmmm -- definitely something to consider!

I'm going to assume these are Chinese made knockoffs?   If so, is the the same vendor Mike got his from, and the exact same carbs, or just knock offs of the same model Keiihin carbs?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Hmmmm -- definitely something to consider!

I'm going to assume these are Chinese made knockoffs?   If so, is the the same vendor Mike got his from, and the exact same carbs, or just knock offs of the same model Keiihin carbs?

I'm hoping Mike will chime in, but I'm pretty sure this is the same vendor and the exact same carbs. And yes, Chinese made IIRC, but from what I've seen, they're of excellent quality.

[rodekyll]

I've been using Chinese knockoff carbs on small engines (mowers, pressure washers, chippers, etc) for some years now.  They're generally better than what I'm throwing away, and so far I have not replaced any that I've installed.  Flange plates have been flat, linkage free, don't leak.  Sometimes they are more "generic" in terms of little filter mount screw holes or linkage anchors, but nothing insurmountable.  For the cost, I'd take a chance on the m/c clones.

[Cam3512]

For originality sake, I'd find a nice set of 30's.  They're indistinguishable from the 29's, and once dialed in you rarely have to touch 'em.  I was hoarding a pair a few years ago, but decided to sell them.  Greg Bender snapped them up.

Oh yea, and they're Italian.

[jas67]

For originality sake, I'd find a nice set of 30's.  They're indistinguishable from the 29's, and once dialed in you rarely have to touch 'em.  I was hoarding a pair a few years ago, but decided to sell them.  Greg Bender snapped them up.

Oh yea, and they're Italian.

VHB30 (square slide) or PHF30 (round slide)?

The Amal 930, which is correct for my bike is a round slide carb, so, I don't see where the round slide PHF30 (or PHF36 for that matter) would look too incorrect.

I'm already diverging from originality with the dual discs up front.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

The easiest set of carbs to fit would be VHB29s or 30s as long as you buy the matching intake manifolds. No custom-made cables, allows use of the original airbox, tuck in at the correct angle so no cutting of the battery covers or carbs tilted at odd angles. The biggest downside is heavy throttle springs.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Moto-Guzzi-850-Eldorado-Dellorto-Carburetors-Intakes-1146-/152729966463?hash=item238f6a577f%3Ag%3A-RwAAOSwaMhZ1V-h&_trkparms=pageci%253A5035bd7b-acfa-11e7-ae40-74dbd180f56e%257Cparentrq%253A01708e1615f0ab4de60252abfffde065%257Ciid%253A33

[Turin]

When I upgraded my 850T with a cam and phf36 carbies, the 30VHBs and manifolds went right onto my ambo. All I had to by were 4 manifld gaskets ( two per side) and cables. Runs great with no jetting issues. 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

One way to put PHF30s on would be to source the (rare) factory manifolds and rubber elbows from an '80? Convert, G5, SP, CX100. The nice thing about this setup is everything clears (no interference with the transmission, no cutting battery covers), the stock airbox can be used and MG Cycle sells ready-made cables. The downside is that the rubber elbows are hard to find in good condition. 

[Testarossa]

Since you already have the proper manifolds, why not a set of Keihin PWK knock-offs?

When I rebuilt the Triumph, I put one of these on it and it ran well -- actually I think it's a real Keihin, not a knock-off, and I paid $100 for a new one. Keihin may have them made in Taiwan by one of those firms that supplies bits for the scooter business -- a lot of those shops got started selling OEM parts to Honda etc.

After rebuilding the original Amal, I took the Keihin off. I never could figure out how to fit an air filter on the Keihin because there was no clearance against the frame tube. In fact I had to grind some material off the outside of the carb just to make room for the flange nuts. The Amal had fatter power at lower-mid RPM, 2500-3500, wasn't as crisp at high RPM. But I don't run this engine at high revs much. I don't know how much of the difference is due to not running an air filter on the Keihin.

[Don G]

There is nothing wrong with the Premiere Amal, chromed slide and alcohol impervious floats as well. Pick up a set of 32 MM for an Norton Combat 750, bolt on and jetting is perfect. They are quite affordable.  DonG

[steven c]

 I have a 74 Eldo with a Convert motor in it and I am using the Amals that where on the OEM motor, I rebuilt them had them sleeved, put in new ethanol proof floats, they work fine bike idles, nice LIGHT throttle pull. Just saying.

[geodoc]

I like 36 Delortos on 850's that have had a 950 barrel kit install preferably with a B10 or X10 cam. Here's some manifolds I made for a 36 installation on an Eldo with 950 Gilardoni barrels and a B10. The flanges were water jet cut.

Seems with the 30's on an Eldo, 850T, T3, etc. that after about 5000 RPM or so it starts to not be so enthusiastic to rev. With the 36's it revs like crazy right up to red line. No idle problems or low-speed lag and the fuel consumption numbers are getting the jetting sorted are virtually the same as the 30's on the bikes I've installed them on anyway.

[jas67]

I like 36 Delortos on 850's that have had a 950 barrel kit install preferably with a B10 or X10 cam. Here's some manifolds I made for a 36 installation on an Eldo with 950 Gilardoni barrels and a B10. The flanges were water jet cut.

Seems with the 30's on an Eldo, 850T, T3, etc. that after about 5000 RPM or so it starts to not be so enthusiastic to rev. With the 36's it revs like crazy right up to red line. No idle problems or low-speed lag and the fuel consumption numbers are getting the jetting sorted are virtually the same as the 30's on the bikes I've installed them on anyway.

Would you be willing to make me a set of those manifolds (and, for how much)? 

[guzziownr]

the fuel consumption numbers are getting the jetting sorted are virtually the same as the 30's on the bikes I've installed them on anyway.

With basically the motor you describe and 36 dells with stock euro jetting from Guzziology I was getting low 40s on the highway.  200 miles to a tank makes for a comfortable range.

Blackcat reported low 50s on the same ride with his 1000S but he is a congenital liar and not to be trusted.

[sign216]

The easiest set of carbs to fit would be VHB29s or 30s ... The biggest downside is heavy throttle springs.

I just put a NOS Dellorto PHBH 30 on my '69 Wards/Benelli 350.  The throttle spring was so heavy I cut it in half.  No problems (yet).

Ironically the carb's box said it was for a Guzzi 750.

[geodoc]

I've still got a set of flanges I could provide to you, but you'd have to do do the rest. not all that hard, but a tlitle time consuming and you'll need a lathe and welding torch.

Let me know if you want the flanges.

geodoc@telus.net

Would you be willing to make me a set of those manifolds (and, for how much)?

[jas67]

There is nothing wrong with the Premiere Amal, chromed slide and alcohol impervious floats as well. Pick up a set of 32 MM for an Norton Combat 750, bolt on and jetting is perfect. They are quite affordable.  DonG

OK, time to revive an old thread.    My Eldorado is nearly back together.     Carbs are the last major thing to do.

I just disassembled the Amal 930's, and the slides are pretty loose.   So, I think it's time for new carbs.

Are these the 32mm ones you're talking about:
http://thebonnevilleshop.com/32mm-premier-amal-carb-carburetor-set-norton-850-commando-spec-932-pn-tbs-lr932p/

[Travman]

OK, time to revive an old thread.    My Eldorado is nearly back together.     Carbs are the last major thing to do.

I just disassembled the Amal 930's, and the slides are pretty loose.   So, I think it's time for new carbs.

Are these the 32mm ones you're talking about:
http://thebonnevilleshop.com/32mm-premier-amal-carb-carburetor-set-norton-850-commando-spec-932-pn-tbs-lr932p/

Thanks for the link. I may be interested in these Premer Amals down the road when mine wear out on my Norton. Right now the Norton is running too well to mess with it.

[jas67]

Thanks for the link. I may be interested in these Premer Amals down the road when mine wear out on my Norton. Right now the Norton is running too well to mess with it.

 

One of these days, I'll make it down there to check out your Norton, and your two beautiful Loops as well.
 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

One of these days, I'll make it down there to check out your Norton, and your two beautiful Loops as well.

You've already seen the black Ambo - it followed you around the mountains of PA a few years ago with me aboard.  It did look a bit different back then - with the "polizia" fairing and Wixom 'bags.

[guzziownr]

Those Premiere Amals would look cool and bolt on.

[Don G]

Get a set of 32 MM Amals for a 750 Combat not an 850 Commando, stock jetting for a Combat is correct it seems, on mine. Measure your inlet manifolds, mine were 32MM bang on, relatively painless install.  DonG

[Kiwi_Roy]

Very true.   It's getting dual discs up front; already have all the parts including the spacer to mount the second rotor.

That will take away some of the excitement, you won't have to plan an escape route.

Mine has the original drums, twin leading shoes are a way better than my old Ariels were.
I do most of the braking with a combination of shifting down and rear brake, the front is only used as a panic measure.
On the more modern VII Sport and Griso I hardly use the rear brake. I think it's something to do with the heavy flywheel on the loop

[blackcat]

With basically the motor you describe and 36 dells with stock euro jetting from Guzziology I was getting low 40s on the highway.  200 miles to a tank makes for a comfortable range.

Blackcat reported low 50s on the same ride with his 1000S but he is a congenital liar and not to be trusted.

Little slow on the response to this comment, but yes, I have gotten that kind of mileage with those carbs.

[Fireflyr]

An equally  important thing to consider for a fast Eldorado  is how good it stops. The Eldorado brakes are barely sufficient if working perfectly with a stock engine.

I know this thread is old but I purchased a pair of the PWK 30 carbs for my Eldorado because the slide froze in one of the Amal 930’s that were installed. I’m running the suggested jetting (38 pilot jet, 130 main jet and have gone from the #3 groove to #1) and it’s still running rich in the mid range. 1/2 throttle up it starts loading up. I’m thinking I need to go leaner on the needle size.

I see that they are being used successfully so if someone can pipe in with the jetting they are running I’d appreciate it. My bike has the stainless header pipes, new Lafranconi slashback mufflers with crossover pipe and new 850 pistons/cylinders. Pretty much stock.

Thanks,
Pat

PS as I moved the needle clip up it seemed like the stumbling moved up in rpm but without a tachometer it’s kind of subjective. I feel like I’m going in the right direction but it’d be nice to have a better starting point. Carbs are sync’d.