They paid the guys who designed this?

[ejs]

That same manual states the oil should be Agip 4t super racing sae 20w50 which is a Full Synthetic oil.

For the hydro motors, the spec was changed to be 5w40 Full Synthetic.

Must be a different shop manual.??
I look at chapter D page 4

Edit..the owners manual say new oil every 5000km and new filter every 15000km, or once a year.

[Arizona Wayne]

I you look at your owners manual, I think you'll find the recommended change interval for the oil filter is NOT at every oil change.

So, if you only change it every second or third oil change, is the oil filter in the pan really that big a deal ???

Exactly.  On my `81 CX100 you change the dino oil every 3K miles and the filter every 9K miles.   On my `04 750 Breva I change the dino oil 3K miles and the filter every 6K miles.

[Bill Hagan]

****

That is why Norge is known to have a starting issue, lawyers want the key switch to break the circuit.

At the risk of sounding as if I am an overly sensitive lawyer ... and I'm not ... I suspect there is truth to that in many U.S. corporations.  That said, despite globalization and our own arrogance in exporting overseas via the ABA and government agencies of the perfection of our legal system approach to things  , I very much doubt that is the case with our Norges.

Italy has lots of lawyers and a sophisticated criminal and civil legal system.  It has, however, been my observation that its corporations, while sensitive to compliance issues, are nowhere near as gangrenously reactive to potential litigation as those here.

Now, backing up a bit to the OP's point, such plaints about the "hidden" oil filter, if voiced 10-20-or more years ago would, I think, have resulted in several responses about the original primary purchaser of Guzzis: the Italian government for military and police use.

In such cases, we were told -- and as a retired U.S. Army guy who also worked with the Italian army for three years back in the day, I have no trouble accepting as believable -- that the goal was to make it hard for Private Piero and Corporal Luigi to mess with it.

Apocryphal?  Mebbe.  But, as the task is one in my easy if clumsy reach, I kinda like the whole idea.   

Bill

[Rough Edge racing]

 Are there any other engines, bike ,car or truck  that had/have a disposable oil filter that's a regular maintenance item,  inside the oil pan  like Moto Guzzi?

[Kev m]

Are there any other engines, bike ,car or truck  that had/have a disposable oil filter that's a regular maintenance item,  inside the oil pan  like Moto Guzzi?

Meaning not a cartridge insert but a full self-contained spin-on filter? Not that I can recall, though it wouldn't surprise me to find another oddball out there somewhere.

[Kiwi Dave]

Must be a different shop manual.??
I look at chapter D page 4

Try chapter B page 4

[Rough Edge racing]

Meaning not a cartridge insert but a full self-contained spin-on filter? Not that I can recall, though it wouldn't surprise me to find another oddball out there somewhere.

 What about a cartridge insert? My 81 Honda XL single 250 needs the side cover removed to clean a flat screen filer...I really can't think of an American car that required oil pan removal for  routine oil filter maintenance... Sludge traps in crankshaft are serviced during engine rebuilds...not on regular oil changes..
   The oil filter in the Guzzi pan is not really a big deal...but I bet quite a few owners won't mess with it?

[RinkRat II]

Are there any other engines, bike ,car or truck  that had/have a disposable oil filter that's a regular maintenance item,  inside the oil pan  like Moto Guzzi?

  BMW K Bikes, three bolts, remove cover, spin off oil filter. Reverse for new filter. Similar to my V11 sport. No Big Deal Really.

     Paul B

[Kev m]

What about a cartridge insert? My 81 Honda XL single 250 needs the side cover removed to clean a flat screen filer...I really can't think of an American car that required oil pan removal for  routine oil filter maintenance... Sludge traps in crankshaft are serviced during engine rebuilds...not on regular oil changes..
   The oil filter in the Guzzi pan is not really a big deal...but I bet quite a few owners won't mess with it?

There are tons of bikes with cartridge inserts (and cars).

And there are a number with sludge traps or pre-filter screens, but they either have easy access (our Monster has one under a plug) or they're not really maintenance items (only cleaned if disassembled for service).

Then again there are a number of off-road/race bikes where the "normal" maintenance includes things like "replace piston every 12 races" or things like that.

[timonbik]

My pet peeve is the Breva 750 gearbox oil drain plug requires disassembly of the exhaust for removal.  Its not all that hard but why not put a detent in the crossover for plug removal or design the headers an inch longer to move the crossover back to allow the plug to be removed.  Common sense!!!

Cheers, Tim

[rodekyll]

button heads.

[Arizona Wayne]

My pet peeve is the Breva 750 gearbox oil drain plug requires disassembly of the exhaust for removal.  Its not all that hard but why not put a detent in the crossover for plug removal or design the headers an inch longer to move the crossover back to allow the plug to be removed.  Common sense!!!

Cheers, Tim

BS, you just need finger/thumb small enough to do it like I do.    It's tight but doable for me and I weigh over 200#.

[ITSec]

My pet peeve is the Breva 750 gearbox oil drain plug requires disassembly of the exhaust for removal.  Its not all that hard but why not put a detent in the crossover for plug removal or design the headers an inch longer to move the crossover back to allow the plug to be removed.  Common sense!!!

Cheers, Tim

I'm with Wayne on this - my tool for the job on my 750 Breva was a ratcheting box wrench, preferably with a flex head. Worked like a charm, though I had to remember to wipe things off afterward to prevent that awful burning smell!

Come to think of it, I use the same approach on the Norge even though there's (a bit) more room to work.

[Tom H]

For years I used cardboard and rags, but I finally bought a plastic oil filter drain funnel made for Harleys and I don't get A DROP on the motor.

Kev, For my next HD oil change, my friend has one of those funnels. I will try it. He says it still left a bit of a mess. i will try it anyways.

BMW R75/5 filter was a cartridge inside the engine. Undo 3 bolts in a tight place to remove a cover. Pull out the cartridge and install a new one, gasket, cover and the bolts. On the original filter, you also had to replace a O ring on each end of the filter. To get the inner one, you had to use a hooked tool like a coat hanger to get it out. And if you forgot to install it, you were in for a no oil pressure seizure.

Tom

[Muzz]

My pet peeve is the Breva 750 gearbox oil drain plug requires disassembly of the exhaust for removal.  Its not all that hard but why not put a detent in the crossover for plug removal or design the headers an inch longer to move the crossover back to allow the plug to be removed.  Common sense!!!

Cheers, Tim

I found that the canister is not central on the pipes, and if I rotated so that the canister is furthest away from the plug there is just enough room to get it out.

As far as the cush drive goes, I (now) use Kev's method.   A previous member on the site was known to have glued his in to the wheel.

[Rough Edge racing]

There are tons of bikes with cartridge inserts (and cars).

And there are a number with sludge traps or pre-filter screens, but they either have easy access (our Monster has one under a plug) or they're not really maintenance items (only cleaned if disassembled for service).

Then again there are a number of off-road/race bikes where the "normal" maintenance includes things like "replace piston every 12 races" or things like that.

 Ok, I meant cartridge filter  that requires the oil pan or side cover removal for servicing....Someth ing besides a three bolt cover removal like the BMW mentioned...

[Kev m]

Ok, I meant cartridge filter  that requires the oil pan or side cover removal for servicing....Someth ing besides a three bolt cover removal like the BMW mentioned...

Well like I was saying MOST of them are designed for easy access if they're considered a regular maintenance item.

Many 4-stroke motocross/dirtbikes have a filter screen or sludge trap (in addition to a cartridge oil filter found under a small removable cover), that requires removal of a sidecover or partial engine disassembly, but that is not considered periodic maintenance.

[timonbik]

BS, you just need finger/thumb small enough to do it like I do.    It's tight but doable for me and I weigh over 200#.

Some are lucky enough to have just enough clearance,  I can get a wrench in there, get the plug about 2/3 way out and I'm against the crossover.  Too me that's a poor design.

Cheers, Tim

[Wayne Orwig]

I'll start with having the oil filter in the oil pan, I ve heard the arguments that it makes you take a closer look at your engine when you change oil but still it's an extra hassle that didn't have to be. Yes I know there are outsiders to remedy that but on my wife 04 Stone the extension of the pan caused serious problems going over a oversized speed bump. Outsider since removed.

Come to my house. I have a Honda that YOU can change the oil and filter in. At the same time, I will change the oil and filter in my EV.
At about 30 minutes into my ride, after I am done, I will be getting a phone call from you telling me you are finally done. But now everything is leaking and you need to tear it back apart.

The oil filter in the pan is a non-issue if you get the proper tools. But you can be sure that is some darn odd setups for oil changes on other machines too.

[webmost]

Look, it's not the end of the world to have to drop the pan just to swap the oil filter. But by the same token, it's not the end of the world to make it so you don't have to drop the pan to change the filter. So don't do that. The user pays your mortgage, so make it user friendly. Seat, switches, pegs, bars all need to be where you expect to find them. This too. That goes for everything from putting the oil fill on the side opposite the kickstand, to a reachable gearbox oil drain plug to you name it. Get over yourself and make it user friendly. Three principles to consider:

1) Unless you have a damn good reason, don't re-invent the wheel
2) If you do re-invent the wheel, don't make it square, jackass.
3) Just because someone else did it stupid doesn't mean you should, either.

[ITSec]

Three principles to consider:

1) Unless you have a damn good reason, don't re-invent the wheel
2) If you do re-invent the wheel, don't make it square, jackass.
3) Just because someone else did it stupid doesn't mean you should, either.

Unfortunately, as far as #3 is concerned, in some cases 'stupid' has become an industry standard! 

[malik]

Well, you can't accuse the designers at Guzzi of not heeding their feedback. Agostini & Mistral did a roaring trade in slim crossovers on the 2TB 750's until the 1TB incorporated it. The 1TB also re-designed the airbox to avoid the awkward air filter replacement and they put those rubber blocks on the clutch cable. The V7 II then re-sited the gearbox fill plug to be in a sensible place & provided clearer access to the clutch operating arm. They might be slow about it, but they do seem to be trying. And those of us with the earlier, unrefined models do manage to muddle along.

On the other hand, those bikes designed with ease of regular maintenance in mind, seem to attract a significant premium - the Vincent, for example, and the Carberry Enfield (a spin off Mazda/Subaru oil filter - cheap & easily available; hydraulic lifters - the rocker covers are hard to get at; indents in the crankcase casting to enable it to be split easily, & so on, then there was this bloke rumoured to have designed & built his own motorcycle with all bolts being the one size head - just think of that - you'd only need one spanner! This last one, though, I can't see happening in mass production anytime soon.

[Muzz]

. The 1TB also re-designed the airbox to avoid the awkward air filter replacement and they put those rubber blocks on the clutch cable.  mass

Yeah, that airbox on the 2TB is an absolute bear.

Don't know about rubber blocks. When I neede to replace the clutch cable I just attached the new one to the old one and pulled it through. <Shrug>

[malik]

The rubber blocks are there to keep the clutch cable from going in between the fins, catching & heating. Examined the one from the Breva (no blocks) & it looked just like the first cable on the V7C - the plastic coating bare where it catches the fins & the outer metal body polished. Still worked OK. But there were complaints about it in the early days.

Mal

[organfixsing]

Just tp get back to the rear cush drive rubbers. I haven't tried it but it would seem to me to use double side sticky tape (the stuff available at stationers) to keep the final drive rubber blocks in place while re-mounting the rear wheel. the tape would degrade in no time after use of the motorcycle.
Just a thought,
Cheers
Brian 

[Kev m]

Kev, For my next HD oil change, my friend has one of those funnels. I will try it. He says it still left a bit of a mess. i will try it anyways.


Tom

I'm case it helps. Here's the break-in service on the new TC:


The shop rag is just backup.

[Tom H]

Well that looks alot better than when I did it without the funnel and just stuffed the area with rags. I'll grab the one my friend has for next time.

Thanks Kev,
Tom