Stelvio won't start...sometimes

[Yo Man]

Here's the situation; 2009 Stelvio, which had been working great, suddenly does not turn over when I hit the starter button. The first couple of times it did this it eventually started after maybe a minute of pushing the start button, putting the kick stand up and down, and squeezing the clutch lever in and out. This happened about four times on my.  outing and the last time I resorted to trying to bump start it. This didn't work but then, to my surprise, it started normally and I was able to get it home. Also of note; no headlights when running. I checked my voltage while underway and the dash indicator said 14 volts, also battery is new this year.

Both cables are attached to the battery nice and tight and I took off the ground wire at the starter and sand papered it and made sure it was on tight. Still wouldn't start, but then a few minutes later did fire up. So intermittent starting. I'm thinking perhaps a starter relay, any other ideas?

[Kiwi_Roy]

I’m not sure if that model forces the electrons to go via the ignition switch or not. Luigi also skimps on the wire size from relay to solenoid.
Could also be a loose spade connector at the solenoid.
The starter solenoid would love to get 40-45  Amps but the factory make sure it’s starved, think no smaller than 16 AWG from relay to solenoid.
Meanwhile if it happens again try exercising the ignition switch

The correct fix is make sure the start relay feed is direct from the battery via a fuse not through the switch.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[guzzisteve]

If you put 12V to the spade on starter solenoid it will start. See if that works, have the key on. You have the startus interuptus stuff.  The headlights is a fuse most likely, see that the sockets aren't burnt on lights.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I'm home now. I can see they force the electrons through the Ignition switch, that is stupid
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2008_Stelvio.gif

You need to clip the yellow wire just below the two relays and feed it with a 20 amp fuse and 16 AWG direct from the battery.
As I said earlier the solenoid will draw 45 Amps for a split second while it pulls the gear into mesh,

[Zoom Zoom]

I bought the startus interruptus from MPH way back when only to discover the wiring was different on my '09 Stelvio, (compared to other models at the time), and eventually gave it away.

What I did end up doing was to get some wire, spade connectors, inline fuse, and an automotive 40 amp relay. Using the trigger wire from the starter, I routed a wire from that end back up to where I mounted the relay. (Under the left side panel below the seat.) A new wire from the relay down to the solenoid, and a new feed directly from the battery with the fuse installed to the relay. This has worked very well and with just a few minutes I could have everything plugged back in as if it never had been changed. A wire from the relay back to ground was also part of that. So, basically, power and ground from the battery with the power on the pass through on the relay. Power from old trigger wire and the new ground to the magnet on the relay, and a continuation from the relay to the solenoid.

John Henry

[Yo Man]

Thank you all for your help guys, much appreciated. Electrics are not my strong suit but I think I can do this, the biggest problem being finding and identifying the correct relay. Sounds like it's below my seat on the left side of the bike, would that be right?

[Zoom Zoom]

No, the stock relays are on the fuse block up in front of the handlebars on the right. The relay and procedure I describe was for adding a relay.

In stock form, all the power for the start circuit flows through small wires through the starter button. By adding the relay, the starter button only triggers the new relay which sends a direct feed to the solenoid.

John Henry

[Yo Man]

Ok, I should be able to find it. Hopefully this doesn't involve removing the tank, but that's probably hoping for too much.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I like the Zoom Zoom fix, not only a direct feed but much shorter interconnect wiring without chopping into the loom 

Yo Man, if it fails to start again try flicking the ignition switch a few times it only takes a minute difference in the contact resistance to boost the current to the solenoid, I blame the switch because the wire cannot change resistance (unless it's very hot). With age the switch contact grease goes hard taking some tension off the contacts to make more resistance. I think this accounts for it starting after a delay, perhaps you cycled the switch and got a better contact. A dirty switch was very common on earlier models. It's a bit of a task to clean on the CARC models, replace the old grease with fresh Vaseline.

The common fix is to chop the yellow wires feeding the start relays and feed them with a wire and fuse direct from the battery.
Now knowing the relays are up front I would feed the two start relays (yellow wire) from the main power lead to the switch (Red/White or Red/Yellow - cant see from this drawing), it should be a decent size wire.
This skips the need for a new fuse by relying on the existing 30A back at the battery.

I'm sure the bean counters saved a few cents by skimping on the wire from the relay to the solenoid as well, my Griso had one equivalent to 20AWG, it now works 3 x faster with a slightly larger wire.

[Yo Man]

Reaching the fuse/relay panel on the early Stelvios like mine is a real pain, being tucked up front under the bodywork by the forks. I've taken off every fastener I can find and still can solve the puzzle. Does anyone have any clues as to how to get off the bodywork on the small tank Stelvio?

[guzzisteve]

Take off gas cap fill, center gas tank wrap, side panels, dash, then there is bolts under head light all that. Then  you can swing all 1 side over a bit to be easier.

[Yo Man]

Thanks Steve, I'll keep trying. They didn't make it easy. The small hex nuts holding down the gas filler are not cooperating. Got two loosened and soaking the other two in WD40. It wouldn't be hard to strip them due to their small size. Getting that centre piece off is the first piece of the puzzle.

[guzzisteve]

Three on ea side in front, 2 or 4 on the back plus wrap around. You will need a 5,4,3,2.5mm allens. I do a couple all the time.  It is a pain.
You may not have to take it off. If you can get it loose enough w/3 by bars in front and on the bottom of the panel on side, just swinging it out helps your arm to get in there.

[Zoom Zoom]

Before you start tearing body work off to look into a starting issue, you need to consider my suggestion. The fix I described, as well as the diagram Kiwi Roy posted of it on another thread costs very little and you don't need to disassemble the bike to do it.

Another possibility is the starter has a loose magnet inside. I had one some time ago that was beginning to fail in that way. It was a long period of time before it decided to quit working all together. (Just something to consider here.)

As for the body work, I have had mine off a number of times. Even knowing how, it is VERY time consuming and tedious at times. It would very involved and I am not sure it would do you any good. Now that I know how, I can get it apart and back together in 5 hours. That does not include doing whatever I went in there for. If you have never done it, double that. If you're in the US, pm me if you would like to discuss over the phone and I can get you pointed in the proper direction for taking the body work off. It's way more than I care to type out.

John Henry

[guzzisteve]

Before you start tearing body work off to look into a starting issue, you need to consider my suggestion. The fix I described, as well as the diagram Kiwi Roy posted of it on another thread costs very little and you don't need to disassemble the bike to do it.

Another possibility is the starter has a loose magnet inside. I had one some time ago that was beginning to fail in that way. It was a long period of time before it decided to quit working all together. (Just something to consider here.)

As for the body work, I have had mine off a number of times. Even knowing how, it is VERY time consuming and tedious at times. It would very involved and I am not sure it would do you any good. Now that I know how, I can get it apart and back together in 5 hours. That does not include doing whatever I went in there for. If you have never done it, double that. If you're in the US, pm me if you would like to discuss over the phone and I can get you pointed in the proper direction for taking the body work off. It's way more than I care to type out.

John Henry

  +1

[Yo Man]

Well guys, I really appreciate the advice. Kiwi Roy has been very kind in exchanging several emails with me with suggestions and wiring diagrams, etc. As I said to him, anything involving electrics is like a foreign language to me. The Zoom Zoom fix seems like a good place to start and hopefully that will be all required.

I live in Canada, though I'm in the US right now and heading home tomorrow. John Henry (not sure that's your real name:-)) I'll send you a pm and take you up on your offer of a phone call to walk me through the procedure.

Appreciate all the help.

[Yo Man]

Here's an update on my starting woes. I've done the Zoom Zoom fix and the bike still won't turn over. I discovered there is no power getting to the solenoid from the "trigger wire and tracing backwards to the fuse panel, no power at fuses A and B. Fuse B is for the starter. The other half of the fuse panel- fuses D, E and F, has power. I've jiggled the fuses (no results) and looked for loose wires or connections and I can't find any.

Anyone have any suggestions? Thanks.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Here's the schematic
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2008_Stelvio.gif
You mean the two fuses at 28, just above the battery, how hard can that be to find?

Note: they probably aren't connected the way they are shown on the drawing, perhaps there's a wire sitting there out of sight.
Just looking at my Griso, same era, the battery positive has the fat starter wire combined with a smaller pair going to the main fuses, the wires
are covered by red heat shrink, I would definitely take a look under there. Don't forget to disconnect the Negative lead while working around the battery.

Look also for the connector 1 as it might be loose.
Pull the fuse out of the holder and see if one end of the clip is alive
Look for rotten wire in the lug.
Any sign at all of a wire overheating near the end.


I believe you had the terminals apart and scraped them if not do it again and smear some Vaseline on them, Lead Oxide can form and completely disconnect a lug at times.
Whatever you find is also the cause of your lights going dim.

[Yo Man]

The two fuses at 28 are the main fuses and no problem to find, they're right under the seat and both are good with power to them. The fuses that have no power to them are the auxiliary or secondary fuses that are located under the gas tank bodywork up near the forks and that are very hard to access. The fuse panel has two rows of fuses; one side is labeled A,B and C, the other side D,E and F. I have power to one side but not the other, that being the side that serves the starter, light relay, parking lights, horn, etc.

As you say, there may be a loose connection or a burnt or cut wire somewhere but not that I can find. All the fuses were good btw.

The last day the bike worked but had trouble starting with no lights, I saw the lights flash on very briefly as I pulled into the garage, suggesting to me a loose connection, would you agree?

[Kiwi_Roy]

Ok, that's clear now you are referring to the fuses at (24) on Carl's diagram which shows
3 with nothing on it
1 going to the light relay coils (dim lights)
2 going to the yellow wire which goes to the start relays (intermittent starting)

So you are not seeing the 12 V from the ignition switch that feeds these two fuses

I'm almost certain you will find a bad contact in the switch, either dirty or fried you may be able to save it but whatever you do take the load off by doing the Startus Interuptus fix and the switch will thank you for it. Clean all the old grease out and replace it with simple Vaseline, nothing else and it will last many more years.
If the switch contacts seem unrecoverable you may be able to piggyback the load onto one of the other contacts that's is still ok. once you have implemented the fix the switch is lightly loaded.

The switches are not too hard to get apart just be careful of the security antenna which is the coil around the barrel of the switch.

[Zoom Zoom]

Yo Man, how are things coming along?

John Henry

[Yo Man]

Not so great, John. I ran power directly to the two fuses that weren't getting any and the bike will now turn over but not start. I'm getting the ECU unplugged symbol so at this point I have no idea what to do next. I booked an appointment at Seacoast in Derry, NH for Sept 28'th; that's the dealer closest to me and the place I took it two years ago to get rollerised. I was happy with the work they did and the way they treated me so I have some confidence in them. It's a lot of driving though- 800 kms one way and I'll probably have to make two round trips as I did last time for a total of 3200 kms. It may turn out to be something simple but it's beyond my limited ability to figure out.

[guzzisteve]

That's not a good sign, I would check the ground at the ECU that's on the left side and should be in a rubber boot. Maybe moisture got in.

[Yo Man]

Ok thanks for that, I'll try that next.