~ 71' V7 750 Special restoration

[F-22]

Well, I finally ordered the parts today. I ordered from HMB, as they did reply to my second email (I used their webpage contact form the first time, and it might not work, because they replied the next day when I contacted them directy on their email address). Ordered two new cylinder kits for the V7 Special (it is listed as 82.5mm, oh well...), their V7 oil pump, new big end shells (guess I won't experiment with Fiat parts for now), and a few seals and service stuff (points, air filter, capacitor...). Time to clean up the engine for the shiny new parts.

[Rick4003]

Sounds good, looking forward to the pictures of the rebuild :)

[F-22]

Parts arrived!



First the good news - I can confirm the "82,5mm" V7 Special cylinders on their webpage are in fact 83mm cylinders.



The oil pump also seems to be made well.

Now the sad bit - I must say I am very dissapointed. I ordered 82.5mm V7 700 head gaskets, but specifically added a note to to the order, to check and include correct gaskets for the cylinders I am ordering. The crush ring on the 82.5mm gaskets is way too small to be effective.



At 79mm, they are probably slightly small even for the 700 model with 80mm bore. The gaskets were otherwise listed for a 82.5mm bore.


Another thing I noticed - three big end bearings have two small holes, while on has a single large hole - the original ones are like this single one.




What worries me most is that they also have different numbers on them (the three with small holes have 2000, the one with the large hole has 2030). I think the holes do not play a big role, but am worried if they are really all for the same standard size. The original plain bearings had those holes to squirt oil onto the cylinder walls, but I guess this is not needed (with nicasil)? Standard oversizes are 0.2mm, so the 2000 and 2030 are most likely just different part numbers due to different hole pattern.



Also, they only sent me a single rubber timing plug, even though I ordered two. It's just 1.11€ for one, but I am definitely dissapointed!

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

I'm amazed at the amount of cushioning material in the box! Too bad they can't seem to get the order right though...

Shouldn't you have ordered 83 mm V7 Special/850GT head gaskets, not V700?

You can retain the oil squirter function by just using the two hole shells on the rods and the other two hole and the one hole on the caps. I would measure the thickness of the odd shell to make sure it's the same as the others and using Plastigage to check the clearance wouldn't hurt either. 

[F-22]

They did cushion it, but I must also say there was not much logic in cushioning it this way - they placed the cylinders on the bottom of the box, then used the cushioning material over them - if the box fell, it'd probably damage the cylinders, because the material they used was practically in the middle and top of the box, nothing on the bottom or the sides. Sorry, but I'm quite dissapointed, just seems like they put no effort at all in the order - they forgot one thing and sent wrong gaskets. I order a lot of stuff, but I don't think I ever experienced multiple problems with a single order, and you'd expect they would be a bit more percise on a 1300€+ order.


I'll definitely check the shell thickness. Sadly, I don't know where I'd get plastigage around here, but I do have to take the conrods to a machinist friend who will make new small ends and probably recut my valve seats, and he may have it.


I have ordered 82,5mm gaskets, since they had the cylinders listed as 82,5mm. But like I wrote, I sent them a message that the gaskets need to fit on their cylinders, which they obviously did not read or did not care. Oh well, at least they're cheap at ~5€ each (and since I now have the gaskets, I guess I have a good excuse to buy a V700 to use them on). Most odd to me is that the gaskets that came are not even 82,5mm as they have them listed online, but rather 79mm...

[Rick4003]

I must say that I have had similar experiences with them, especially on the packing. My box had lot of cushioning material, but most came from the shop trash bin. Same order also had missing parts.
Also my PHF36 carbs was not setup from the shop as advertised on their website. I didn't bother if they didn't get the correct jet or something, but the slides left and right didn't match! I found out too late and didn't get anything out of complaining.

The quality of the parts I have received haven't been bad, but they should really hire a new guy/girl to pack the orders.   

[wirespokes]

That's the problem with loose packing. The part may have started out on top, but vibration will cause heavy stuff to settle to the bottom of the box. I see this all the time with people shipping stuff to me, whether on ebay or buying stuff from forum members. It's a common misconception that it's packed properly if the part sits on top of a full box of peanuts.

The way to do it instead is make pillows by putting the packing material in plastic bags. That way the packing can't migrate and allow the part to settle to the bottom of the box.

[F-22]

Well, I have a short update after a while.

Unfortunately, I have a problem with the plastic oil pump gear. It seems the original pump was modified for the plastic gear to fit (thinking it is from some Fiat car model now...), the second gear shaft and housing were slightly grinded off. The gear interferes with the HMB (or stock) oil pump. I do not want to modify it, so now I am searching for a standard steel oil pump gear. If anyone has any idea where I could find one, it would be a huge help. Can't find them on European ebay, though there are a couple of complete used gear sets in the US for reasonable money - but sadly, the listed postage is higher than the cost of the gears. I've asked if they would consider sending only the oil pump gear in a simple envelope for cheap postage, and I'd still pay the complete price for the set...

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Well, I have a short update after a while.

Unfortunately, I have a problem with the plastic oil pump gear. It seems the original pump was modified for the plastic gear to fit (thinking it is from some Fiat car model now...), the second gear shaft and housing were slightly grinded off. The gear interferes with the HMB (or stock) oil pump. I do not want to modify it, so now I am searching for a standard steel oil pump gear. If anyone has any idea where I could find one, it would be a huge help. Can't find them on European ebay, though there are a couple of complete used gear sets in the US for reasonable money - but sadly, the listed postage is higher than the cost of the gears. I've asked if they would consider sending only the oil pump gear in a simple envelope for cheap postage, and I'd still pay the complete price for the set...

I may have a one that is not part of a set, will have a look tomorrow when I'm back in the shop. Shipping via USPS First Class Package International (the least costly way) is still $24.00 though.

[F-22]

I have recieved the oil pump gear!

Thank you a lot!


In the meantime, I have also worked on some other interesting projects, like this early 30's Matchless Model X (supposedly the 9.9HP sport model due to the extra chrome) that'll hopefully soon fire up after being dissassembled in the 40's, just before the war:



All original colour ect... Really cool to me.

My V7 also got some company.





It's my friends V700 Police, from 74' or 75'. It's quite interesting to me, seems to me they used various bits from here and there on it. The engine casting is such as on later round fin Tonti models (or the Eldorado). Pistons have a huge dome.



I like how neat the single speedo is, though I think it was originally used in some Fiat, with a different face and calibration (possibly the Topolino? seems very familiar but can't quite say).

It had that ridiculous rubber block chain tensioner, and an old chain. Swapped it out for the ~20€ automatic tensioner, definitely looks a lot better and has no play now.





Makes me appreciate how great the gears are in my V7!

Had to do something with the monting end for the telephone, it looked odd without anything, so I 3D printed a neat ending. If I had a furnace, I'd even attempt casting it in aluminium, but sadly don't have everything I'd need right now...



Also cleaned and coated both fuel tanks.



Again, interesting to see, my V7 special tank is huge in comparison. Must be some 10cm wider overall. The police V700 had far less fuel inside. They seem the same unless you put them next to eachother.

I cleaned up the chrome (there was lots of rust...). His bike does not look too bad now...



Also retightened one head, and took off the other. The valves are a lot smaller than on the V7 Special, and the bore is smaller. He has the chrome bore, but says it'll be okay... Well, it's his bike. I guess if something goes wrong, it would be cheaper to just swap out the engine for some other round or square fin, and have loads of power and all the updates (like an oil filter) - the bike is not all original anyway.

Then I mounted everything on my V7. Straightened every cover on a big fairly straight surface (glass from some old window and sandpaper), it's amazing how bent everything can get with age and overtightening... I also have new guides in the heads, and I had the broken valve cover screw/tab welded back on, then I tapped the hole and straightened it all on a mill...





Used hylomar on most gaskets. Also made those foldable tabs for the rocker scews. Don't like the short thread they have, and this allows me to use minimal torque and they'll still never loosen on their own...



I also found a good generator bracket. Decided I'll reinforce it anyway, to avoid any problems in the future... I welded about 1cm long tabs on the sides.



I think it will help a lot with the common fatigue fractures they had.



It's short enough so that the oil line goes by without a problem. Guess I'll just paint it, not a fan of zinc electroplating anyway (look at it the wrong way and it'll already start to rust...).



I mounted the sump on the engine, as well as the oil pump. For some reason, the oil pump does not turn around smoothly when torqued down, I guess it'll have to wear down the aluminium on the engine a bit. Otherwise, I filled up the sump as much as possible without the front cover, then turned the pump by hand. It only took a few turns, and it squirted out oil on top, so it should be primed and ready for the first fire up...


The oil pump sprocket went on as it should... Seems to be in nice condition too (well, did they ever wear out anyway...?).



As it sits right now:



Still have to torque down the crank nut (that's why I left the wrench on). Couldn't help myself not to use some new stainless screws. They do have a bit of a yellow-ish old tone to them, I think they do not stand out too much, and some of the old screws were quite rusty...


So next up, rebuilding the generator, finishing up the distributor (already mostly rebuilt it, but I have to find the housing O ring somewhere). I'll also open up the starter motor, to clean and lubricate it a bit... And probably lubricate the shaft drive splines and check/possibly rebuild the u-joints. That's most of the "hard" work I still have... Also fit the carbs and the exhausts...


Still have to fit the new springs I got in the distributor advance mechanism, any advice for this?

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

Glad the gear made it there safely.

V700s were built up to '78 and used whatever bits were in use at the time on other models, but with the old short stroke crank, smaller bores, valves, etc. Weird how Guzzi did that.

I would have welded on an extension from the generator bracket back to the front distributor bolt. That helps alleviate issues with the bolts holding the bracket to engine case breaking. Those bolts should be replaced with studs anyway as well.

http://thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_loopframe_distributor_rebuild.html

 

[F-22]

Thanks, that article is very helpful.

I also just finished installing the studs in there, and used nylock nuts on top (guess the heat shouldn't be an issue, since Morini used them to secure cylinder heads...).

[Rick4003]

Had to do something with the monting end for the telephone, it looked odd without anything, so I 3D printed a neat ending. If I had a furnace, I'd even attempt casting it in aluminium, but sadly don't have everything I'd need right now...

Print up another part 3% larger than the original size (103%) and send it to me. I can cast it up for your this summer. Should be able to get my foundry back up and running by then. Make sure that the print have 1-2% draft or more on all sides so it can be pulled from the sand.

-Ulrik

[JC85]

That's a beautiful ride! Glad that the rebuild is progressing, though I'm sorry you've had some troubles with it. Such is life, right? Looking forward to more updates!

[canuck750]

Great progress, I really like what you did with the 3D printed piece, brilliant!

[F-22]

Well I got them both back on the road through this weekend! Good news is that everything I've worked on seems to be fine. I'm surprised there is quite a performance difference between my V7 Special and my friends V7 700 Police. My V7 seems way more powerful. I'm also very happy the engines do not leak one bit, and run quite nicely (though the 700 does not want to idle consistently, sometimes it just wants to "die", but I haven't done anything to the distributor yet so I suspect that's the culprit...).


The new air filter rubber (from stein dinse) seems to fit very badly, it likes to curl inwards when the engine is started, so the air bypasses the filter (did not happen on my Special, but it did happen on the 700, might also be the cause of poor idle).

Of course, the ride showed some other problems too... The fuel valves on the 700 are leaking. I did make new seals for my Special, but I checked on Stein Dinse that a new one costs 8.5€, so definitely not worth messing with.


My V7 Special final drive is leaking at the shaft seal when I go a little faster. Not horrible, but notable (goes up the tire...). I want to remove the swingarm to check the u-joint anyway, so that shouldn't take much to replace.

Another major issue I noticed almost immediately on my V7 Special - the front wheel is not "centered". I suspect the bike was crashed, because the rim is not Borrani. I guess someone threw on some new rim and did not mount it properly... Well, I remounted a couple of wheels, so I think I'll manage it (however, I hope I can do it without removing the tire from the wheel). Currently feels like I am riding over horrible potholes constantly.

The brakes on the V7 700 are HORRIBLE! My hand hurts from clutching the front brake. I tried to adjust it, but I'm not expert on these. Possibly, the shoes are smeared with something? Even the rear drum is very bad. Afterwards I went on my Special, and what a difference! The same drums, but the ones on my V7 are extremely effective, no problem completely blocking the wheels at any speed. On the 700 you just hold and pray... Replacement shoes aren't cheap, perhaps I'll just have them relined...


Here are some photos of the V7 700 a few kilometers from my home.








I also have to sort out the cables. Most are too short and routed very oddly (not through the forks...). Does anyone perhaps have any photos of the correct routing (clutch, throttle and speedo...), it would help a lot.

The other thing is the electrical system. The generator does not charge on either bike. I hope I didn't mess up the wiring somehow, but as far as I know there are only two things to connect (on smaller ~4mm screw on top, and probably the main ~M5 "+" terminal at the rear) However, the regulator does not seem too bad. Are there any cheap electronic regulators that would just fit in? I suspect the regulator is the same as on practically any old car (defintely the same as certain Fiats at least).
The other thing is the wiring - it's very old and worn. I think I'll really have to make my own loom (there's just a couple of wires anyway... just have to get some neat tubing, cables and end fittings).

[Rick4003]

Looks good everything!

The other thing is the electrical system. The generator does not charge on either bike. I hope I didn't mess up the wiring somehow, but as far as I know there are only two things to connect (on smaller ~4mm screw on top, and probably the main ~M5 "+" terminal at the rear) However, the regulator does not seem too bad. Are there any cheap electronic regulators that would just fit in? I suspect the regulator is the same as on practically any old car (defintely the same as certain Fiats at least).
The other thing is the wiring - it's very old and worn. I think I'll really have to make my own loom (there's just a couple of wires anyway... just have to get some neat tubing, cables and end fittings).

If your bike has the Bosch system an electronic voltage regulator from an old vw beetle should work. They use the same generator/alternator.

-Ulrik

[F-22]

Sadly, it is the Magneti Marelli generator. The regulators aren't interchangeable between Bosch and Magneti Marelli?

I'm thinking of the Polski Fiat 126p again, it may have had something similar...

[v7john]

I'm using a solid state regulator designed for a Fiat 126 on my V7  700. Fitted 2 years ago and works fine for me. I wrote about it in my blog https://racingrhino.wordpress.com/2017/03/11/too-many-volts-11-mar-2017/

[Rick4003]

According to Greg Bender they are not interchangeable between the systems, it needs to be either the entire Bosch or Magneti Marelli. I have the Bosch generator and the Magneti Marelli regulator so I need to get me a Bosch regulator instead.

-Ulrik

[BikeMike]

That's a nice Matchless Model X you have.  Were you able to get her running?

[F-22]

We did not start the Matchless yet, but we finally got the correct magneto for it, and we machined the engine cover. Shouldn't be long now.


I've fixed the problems with the front end. Actually got really lucky on a recent swap meet in Italy, and found an original V7 Special rear wheel for very cheap. I've took the front wheel apart, and laced it with the new polished Borrani rim. Looks really neat now, perhaps even a bit too fancy for this bike. Also figured out what the steering stem wobble problem was. The bearings were tightened and seemed fairly new and freshly greased (probably replaced when the bike was crashed), so I only cleaned and regreased them. The play came from the bottom steering stem nut! The huge nylock nut was loosened, so I retightened it with some blue loctite, I think it should hold on now...

Also found a replacement dashboard light (the original one flew out when I took it on the first ride, loosened due to vibrations). The correct blue colour too!
Now I wonder which light means what. This dual instrument V7 Special has 5 lights and no markings... Probably one red for oil, one red for generator, green or red for neutral, blue for high beam, that leaves one light... Perhaps the green one is for "normal" lights, bikes may not have had them on all the time back then, and the neutral is another red light (perhaps this one should be orange but is not original, I have 3 red lights).



Took the final drive apart too, seems to be in good condition, no excessive play... The shaft needs new u-joint crosses, and I'm swapping the bearing in the swingarm. Also replacing the o-ring at the driveshaft, and I've already ordered the final drive seal. I also need new swingarm bearings. I hope I can source the u-joint crosses locally for cheap, I remember one costs 21€ at a local tractor/agriculture shop for the small twins...