Canbus Instruments

[Kiwi_Roy]

The V85TT discussion about instruments failing got me to wondering, SpeedHut on their site say

"Aftermarket Speedometer installation has never been easier! The CAN-bus Speedometer wires directly into the OBDII* diagnostic connector. This speedometer uses the vehicle's ECU using the CAN (SAE J1979) protocol.
Works with 2008 and newer vehicles** (Compatible with select older vehicles). CAN-bus wire harness with ODB2 connecter sold separately"

I know the motorcycle dashes often incorporate safety interlocks such as side-stand and starting, headlight relays but the inputs and outputs for those features are pretty common, I'm sure we can duplicate those with a small logic panel.
Speedhut would likely have something along that line as well.

Do we have anyone familiar with working in CanBus?

https://www.speedhut.com/about-speedometers.html

[bigbikerrick]

From the little bit I know about canbus it sounds like a real nightmare for the shade tree mechanic. Many computers , or ecu's controlling  multiple systems that talk to each other..... Yikes!
below is a video that explains how canbus works in simple language.
Rick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqLDpHsxvf8

[Aaron D.]

"Oh m'sieur, I cannot ride your beautiful motorcycle for I have, how you say, 'la phobie de canbus'"!

[Chuck in Indiana]

"Oh m'sieur, I cannot ride your beautiful motorcycle for I have, how you say, 'la phobie de canbus'"!

Times one brazillion. 

[Murray]

What you'll probablly find is there is and automotive standard for CANBUS most likely introduced by one of the orginal manufacturers of the system (not to be confused with car manufacturers). Similar to GPS data strings and a whole plethora of other devices, so speed will go to node xx oil pressrue to node xy etc. So once you have an understanding of it its probablly not that complcated as EFI has been regularly fitted to cars for the last 35+ years I doubt there would be too many shade tree mechanics unable to do anything with it.

[Kev m]

But do motorcycles conform to OBDII standards?!?

They didn't a short time ago, has that changed?

[beetle]

Kev m is on the right track.

Guzzi/Marelli do not comply 100% with the OBDII standard. I don't know (nor care to) about other marques.

Installing 3rd party instruments is, IMNSHO, frought with traps for the unwary. This way lies madness.

[Old Jock]

As Kev will probably have experienced with his Ducati, this can be a real can of worms & things you did not think possible can happen, well that's been my experience with a Duc 1098

I've had polarities change on wiring within circuits and flash rates change on indicators for no obvious reason, just one day I start the bike and stuff changes, it's really weird and I have no clue what is going on, despite having dug into it a little

Unless you have access to diagnostic hardware & software I'd be very wary about changing instruments where Canbus is installed

I was considering a different dash on the Ducati at one point and installed a Nemisis ECU that I got cheap(er) than the ridiculous amount they want for it new. No regrets as the map in it is miles better and it removes the ECU dash security handshake, which will stop the bike starting.

No idea about Guzzi but you'd better check if the clocks/dash are also tied to an immobilizer like the Duc or you could be in whole new level of grief

[pauldaytona]

The v85 has a new type diagnostic connector. It carries the old K line, ans Can bus signals next to +/- 12 volt. So maybe the speedhut could work, but there is more to consider ripping the dash out. The dash does more. Nd if you are making it a better reliable bike?

[tris]

The killer I  believe  on the CARC bikes at least is that the immobilizer logic lives in the dash and sends the go/no-go signal to the ECU

I'm sure that Paul or Beetle will be able to elaborate further

[Meinolf]

Hi,

The killer I  believe  on the CARC bikes at least is that the immobilizer logic lives in the dash and sends the go/no-go signal to the ECU

the immobilizer function was found some time ago. The current XDFs include the parameter to disable the immobilizer.

https://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/xdf/5AM_GuzziDiag_One_Lambda_V1.32.zip
https://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/xdf/5AM_GuzziDiag_Two_Lambda_V1.32.zip

Cheers
Meinolf

[Meinolf]

Hi Roy,

Do we have anyone familiar with working in CanBus?

I've researched the CANBus packets and their content on the 2230/3222 BINs.

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=93758.msg1490024#msg1490024

Do you have a specific question?

Cheers
Meinolf

[Perazzimx14]

CANBUS is not new. The automobile industry has used it for decades. If you likenew motorcycles might as well get used to it because it here to stay.

[Murray]

You understand you are destroying the oppourtuntiy for suspender snapping things aren't as good as they used to be nashing and wailing.

[Tusayan]

CANBUS is not new. The automobile industry has used it for decades. If you likenew motorcycles might as well get used to it because it here to stay.

I think as a result of this and other similar factors we’ll see a slow shift towards desirable models of older bikes as the preference for a lot of people who could buy anything they want, much like today’s hobby car scene.  More so than today, anyway.  Others will buy new, but the numbers of new bikes sold will be lower.

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

CANBUS is not new. The automobile industry has used it for decades. If you likenew motorcycles might as well get used to it because it here to stay.

There will likely always be a few smaller, cheaper models of motorcycles that will not have CANBUS. From what I've read, the new Royal Enfield 650s don't.

[Tusayan]

I went to a BMW club event after writing the post above, and discussed the same issue there.  One of the curious things to me is that it’s very often older, more conservative people who staunchly defend the supposed benefits of dealer centered maintenance, discouraging field serviceability, discouraging owner modifications and so on. CANBUS is an integral part of that. After a while today, the light went on: given the vision issues and physical issues that come with age, discouraging this group from what they once may have done on their own bikes, ‘technical advancements’ that drive most owners towards dealer service keep older riders feeling involved and relevant, particularly if money is not an issue for them.  A couple of them told me that directly!

BMW and Bosch have lately been leaders in increased complexity and (in particular) designs that push owners toward directing ongoing cash flow to dealers and themselves. Bosch has a history of lobbying to make its technology legally mandated, e.g. motorcycle ABS. Another factor in Germany specifically is the home market buyers tendency to support anything from those companies regardless - the very nationalistic tendency in consumer behavior, more so than in the US or almost anywhere else in 2019. I’m not sure however how they’re going to like it when in a very few years new EU cars (and possibly, in time, bikes) have mandatory GPS based speed control to match the posted speed limit, facilitated by making the vehicle a regulation-compliant mobility system controlled by proprietary software versus whatever the buyer chooses, including his chosen modifications.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a26960542/the-eu-wants-cars-to-have-speed-limiters-and-more-by-2022/

https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/specialist/knowledge/speed/new_technologies_new_opportunities/intelligent_speed_adaptation_isa_en

Agreed that some motorcycle manufacturers aren’t going to play the 'advanced mobility software and communication' game, as long as their market doesn’t want it and legal requirements don’t force it on them.

[tris]

Hi,

the immobilizer function was found some time ago. The current XDFs include the parameter to disable the immobilizer.

https://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/xdf/5AM_GuzziDiag_One_Lambda_V1.32.zip
https://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/xdf/5AM_GuzziDiag_Two_Lambda_V1.32.zip

Cheers
Meinolf

This is one of those situations where I understand the words on their own but need some more detailed reading and education to understand the concept and how to use it!!

I've watched your efforts on decoding the dash in fascination but now it seems that the death blow of a completely failed  dash killing the bike has gone
Thanks for all your work

[Kiwi_Roy]

Hi Roy,

I've researched the CANBus packets and their content on the 2230/3222 BINs.

https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=93758.msg1490024#msg1490024

Do you have a specific question?

Cheers
Meinolf

Meinolf.
           No I have no specific question but we got in a discussion about what to do if your new V85TT gauge quit 20 years down the road when it was no longer supported.

It seemed that you can buy canbus for a car, without even worrying what the make is so presumably each function must have a pre assigned address, why not a bike if it's regular can bus?
This could probably be checked by attaching something to the diagnostic port, I believe the adapter for Guzidiag is an OBDPort.

https://www.speedhut.com/gauge/GF4-TACH-02/15/Freedom-CAN-BUS-Tachometer-8K-RPM

I realize the dash on most bikes also serves a few safety interlocks but there are plenty of little logic panels that could serve that function, if all else fails a couple of relays.

[Meinolf]

Hi Roy,

It seemed that you can buy canbus for a car, without even worrying what the make is so presumably each function must have a pre assigned address, why not a bike if it's regular can bus?

while the CANBus is standardized, the content and frequency of the packets can be changed to suit the particular requirements. Below are the packages, their content, the frequency and sender/receiver info. The only package originating from the dashboard is $20. All others are sent by the ECU and used by the dashboard.

This could probably de checked by attaching something to the diagnostic port, I believe the adapter for Guzidiag is an OBDPort.

The two CANBus lines are not on present on the diagnostic port (on CARC models), but this might be different on the V85. In either case it's not difficult to attach a CANBus sniffer, even a simple Arduino is sufficient for the purpose. Not a big surprise, Beard wrote a sketch for this purpose.

I realize the dash on most bikes also serves a few safety interlocks but there are plenty of little logic panels that could serve that function, if all else fails a couple of relays.

The only interlock on the CANBus (I have found) is the immobilizer bit sent in package $20. And even that is only required when the ignition is turned on, after the engine is running the bit is no longer required. Which makes sense, you wouldn't want an engine to cut out because the transponder or antenna or connection turns faulty.

I'm pretty sure that replacing the dashboard CANBus line with a simple bus terminator resistance would avoid the CANBus not present error message. And the immobilizer function can be turned off in the BIN.

Cheers
Meinolf

[Kiwi_Roy]

Meinolf,
           I didn't mean to take away from the tremendous task of cracking the code for the ECU, the little I have read on that I can see it's a daunting task.
It may be that Guzzis don't follow the OBDII CAN J1979 protocol at all. Speedhut say that all vehicles after 2008 should.
https://www.speedhut.com/about-freedomgauges.html#canbus.

Someone for the North American market has laid down a standard CAN (J1979) protocol so a speedometer or tach can be used from one vehicle to another. Perhaps a car like a Mercedes or a bike like Ducati or Guzzi doesn't have to comply.

Speedhut says
If the OBDII connector has wires that connect to pins '6' and '14' then the vehicle supports the CAN-BUS (J1979) protocol.*
OBDII CAN (J1979) protocol Pinout:
Pin 4 -- Chassis Ground
Pin 5 -- Signal Ground
Pin 6 -- CAN High (data)
Pin 14 -- CAN Low (data)
Pin 16 -- +12volt Battery power (not for use as gauge power)**
http://www.speedhut.com/images/cmsfiles/obdiipinout.png
OBDII Connector pinout diagram

Perhaps it would be interesting to get a modern dash from a wrecked car and just plug it into the OBDII diagnostic adapter to see if anything showed up.
Do they use J1979 in your part of the globe?

The chances of me ever owning a V85 with a dud set of gauges and having to figure what to do are pretty remote but others seem fearful of it.

[Moto]

Meinolf,

I think that byte DB0 of $20, listed as unknown, is the air pressure signal being sent from the dash to the ECU.

My main evidence is a graphic from the Breva 1100 Service Manual, a slide presentation used to train technicians when the Breva was first introduced. It shows the air pressure sensor connected to the H and L Canbus lines. A second reason for my belief is simple elimination: if the other messages don't contain the air pressure signal, this one must. (I have personally examined the PCBs of the Griso and Breva dashes and located the air pressure sensor that is soldered to them.)

It seems we are on the verge of being able to replace Griso/Breva/CARC dashes with anything we like, including non-CANBus dashes.

The problems to be solved are:

1) turning off the immobilizer bit function in the BIN, as you have discovered how to do.

2) perhaps defeating the "CANBus not present" error, probably with the resistance trick you described. EDIT: Not needed with solution to 3(b), however.

3) dealing with the missing air pressure signal problem, by:

  a) letting the ECU substitute its default value (listed in that document I mentioned), and operating only near sea level.

  b) finding another way to send the air pressure signal via CANBus, without the original dash.

    i) Here I wonder what models of Ducatis used this ECU, and whether their air pressure sensors were some place other than soldered onto the dash. (The Aprilias would be sharing versions of the Griso/Breva dashes with the onboard sensor, I'm pretty sure, since I've seen several of them.)

    ii) Alternatively, one could build a separate module containing the air pressure sensor that would send the needed CANBus signals. I think you could describe how to do this. Or maybe they can be purchased for not much money.

Those problems solved, a Griso/Breva/CARC could operate with just about any dash, say the one on my Buccaneer (which is about $30 on Ebay!). Dealing with error codes from the ECU would then be done only via GuzziDiag or another such program.

This would be a great thing for the future viability of the aging CARC bikes. It might cause some gnashing of teeth among previous owners who got rid of their bikes in part because of the dashboard problem, however. 

Moto

[Tusayan]

The chances of me ever owning a V85 with a dud set of gauges and having to figure what to do are pretty remote but others seem fearful of it.

Dislike is not the same thing as fear 

What would be interesting to *me* if I bought a V85TT is a kit that included a cable operated throttle, deleted the catalyst for the exhaust, implemented open loop EFI with a good map, and replaced the flat panel with a speedo (no tach required) and a few very durable off-road style indicator lights.

All the handlebar switch gear would be replaced with the simplest, most durable stuff I could find.  No riding modes etc.  ABS would likely come off.

Baja Designs reinvented.

[pauldaytona]

The v85 has a 7sm ecu, more modern then the 5am. The dash on the v85 looks just like the TuenoV4/RSV4 dashes. So looking into what is available for racers who use another dash could learn something.
like:
https://www.alphasbk.com/products/alpha-racing-plug-play-color-dashboard-aprilia-rsv4-aprc-abs
http://www.starlane.com/vedit/15/cronometro-gps-indicatore-marce-contagiri-cambio-elettronico-acquisizione-dati-PRODOTTI.asp?idprod=1133
https://i2m.it/en/products/chrome-lite/

Could be that older rsv4 dashes also work, they look like the griso/ stelvio dash with big revcounter and the rest digital. I see the pressure sensor not mentioned at any replacement dash. 

[Kiwi_Roy]

Reading about the Alpha dashes it reminds me of some of the industrial displays we use for controlling a chemical plant. You start out with a blank display and configure the graphics as your imagination
takes you first of all drawing it on a desktop PC then downloading it into the panel. These displays typically have a range of different communication protocols available I don't think I have seen Canbus but it is no more complex than many others.