Muscle Car barn find... 110 of them

[Ncdan]

Can-  I really don't get the deal of owning a "genuine" Shelby, Hemi, L88, etc., etc., that's been restored to the nines.

It ain't original.  So whether the numbers match or not, it's still a replica to what it was.  Yeah, I see the big deal with an original "survivor" that's been maintained original condition, with hopefully, original paint. 

Rather than an "genuine" Shelby Mustang, why not a restomod that looks like a Shelby and drives the way you want it?   Whether like a modern car or a '60s car with lousy brakes, weak cooling system and hard to tune engines?  Maybe like the Mustang you had?

They're only original once.  I can't see with the number of restored cars out there, that anyone wants another "genuine" car with correct drum brakes, chalk marks, throttle springs with all new new sheet metal covered with a perfect clear coat paint job.

Make mine a restomod built for me.  Or better yet, go to the used car lot and pick up a late model Mustang, Camaro or 'vette that puts those muscle cars to shame for $20k.  And then drive the hell out of it.

You make some very valid points. However most folks who are in

the market for these older vehicles like the 67- early 70s are older guys like myself who owned them as teens. I had  1969 dodge cornet super bee and I’d love to get my hands on one just like her. You are also right about these cars being weak in certain areas like the breaks. This issue is easily updated with 4 wheel disk brake systems for a minimal amount of money. As far as power goes, I wouldn’t put much of my hard earned money on the new hemi out running the 67-70 molar HEMI;)

[oldbike54]

 Dan having read several issues of the Hemming's muscle car magazine where the original 1/4 times for some cars that were considered really fast in the era , most of them were 14 second cars from the factory . There are modern Corvettes that will do the 1/4 mile in the 11 second range .

 Dusty

[Rough Edge racing]

 The only new car I owned was a 69 Super Bee bought after getting out of the service...The usual 383 4 speed and Sure Grip differential...I drag raced it many times, low 14's @ 95 MPH just like all the rest of the base model Muscle cars...The best them, Mopar 440 6 pack, Chevy 396/375 and the occasional Cobra jet could run mid 13's with the street tires available then...I was at the track a lot in the late 60's early 70's and a 13 flat car without slicks or headers was far from common....Any punk in a run of mill newer Camaro, Mustang or Challenger can run into the high 12's with the AC on....

[cliffrod]

In the 80's, it was still feasible to build a reasonably stock 60's era car with a few mods stock and be as fast or faster than many new "performance" cars.  I had a 67 Galaxie with a 428 in the 80's & 90's.  Lots of fun. But those days and results are long gone.   Stats on new cars are way better, even for plain stuff.   Ive got nearly identical (but this time "real" & original engined) 67 428 Galaxie now.  It was put on the back burner when my latest Guzzi came home.....  I'm under no illusions that it will be fast like anything new.  It's just what I like.  My old bikes aren't fast like new bikes, either.  But it's what I like.

That auction will be a LOT of work, including trying to get enough buyers involved and spending freely.  I got my auctioneers license long ago.  Anyone can bid, including the auctioneer and the owner of the item(s).  It's not illegal to bid on your own items.  The auction company is still paid commission on the sale of each item, even when the seller or the seller's reps win the bid.  Paying an auctioneer's fee to find out what your item is worth is just one way to find out what it's worth.  Outright fraud is illegal, but few auctioneers are stupid enough to risk their license doing it.

The big money times for old cars are fading.  Top custom builders like Roy Brizio has been talking about the market downturn for years.  Going forward, some cars will still be big bucks.  Most won't.   I expect the average prices will be closer to Lannis' prediction.  Non-running average machines don't bring big bucks.  There's too many unknowns.

Sometimes the things you like cost money to do.  Not everything turns a profit.  Buying brand new often means instant depreciation & loss, whether it's a brand new vehicle or the umpteen parts required to make a drag-it-home  machine new again.....

[Kev m]

As far as power goes, I wouldn’t put much of my hard earned money on the new hemi out running the 67-70 molar HEMI;)

Demon, Hellcat etc just saying...
 

[oldbike54]

 A fella not far from here was trying to corner the market on Ford model T's , A's and B's . He built a pole barn that is probably 150 ft long and 20 ft wide to hold them all . Problem was , somewhere about 1999 the value of original early Fords tanked . Cars that were worth maybe $25K-30k   dropped to 1/2 that almost overnight . Now it appears you can buy a really nice restored A model for $22K , which still leaves him in the hole .

 Dusty

[Lannis]

As far as power goes, I wouldn’t put much of my hard earned money on the new hemi out running the 67-70 molar HEMI;)

Ncdan -

I've got the same color rose-colored glasses as you do about the Olde Dayze, and I enjoyed my and my friends' Muscle Cars just as much, and all the bench-racing and BS about whether a 440 would outrun a Hemi or a 428 Cobra Jet or whatever.

BUT in addition to the glasses, I've also got period tests from "Car and Driver" that include timing slips from Hemi tests from '66 Satellites to '70 'Cudas, and not one of those cars could break out of the 13s.   Way too heavy and way poor hop-control in the rear end, not to mention tires.   A period Norton Commando with a light, experienced rider could get high 12s through the timing lights and beat all of them.

And it's easy to look up the numbers for a modern Demon or Hellcat as Kevm mentions.   Mid-10s and sometimes high 9s under perfect conditions.   The old Hemi would be 200 yards behind it ... !

Lannis

[GearheadGrrrl]

First off, I wonder how many musclecars are real "numbers matching" cars like the auctions say they are? The first generation Shelby Mustangs were built by Ford and were just 289 cube 271 HP fastbacks with a few mods. As for the intermediate coupes like the Road Runner, SS396, GTO, etc. they were just a garden variety big block engine plopped in an intermediate sized coupe and can be faked almost as fast as you can swap a 283 for a 396. And verification from factory records... What factory records? Ford admits to having no build records from the 60s, and in the last half century it's come out that most of the top "Super Stock" Fairlanes never came down a Ford assembly line. And even if the body ain't bogus, high performance engines were frequently swapped, stolen, etc.- I remember a Hemi engine that got pulled and stolen from a Mopar dealer's lot, a Comet Cyclone that had a race prepped engine from Holman and Moody besides it's factory installed 429, and one of the fastest drag racing stock class muscle cars from the 60s on started life as a Post Office Falcon wagon with a 6 cylinder engine before it received a 427 from a Fairlane coupe that may have never seen a Ford assembly line either.

So better to build a stock replica or a restomod from a $20k Dynacorn body than waste your money on a six figure "authentic" "survivor"! 

[Ncdan]

Ncdan -

I've got the same color rose-colored glasses as you do about the Olde Dayze, and I enjoyed my and my friends' Muscle Cars just as much, and all the bench-racing and BS about whether a 440 would outrun a Hemi or a 428 Cobra Jet or whatever.

BUT in addition to the glasses, I've also got period tests from "Car and Driver" that include timing slips from Hemi tests from '66 Satellites to '70 'Cudas, and not one of those cars could break out of the 13s.   Way too heavy and way poor hop-control in the rear end, not to mention tires.   A period Norton Commando with a light, experienced rider could get high 12s through the timing lights and beat all of them.

And it's easy to look up the numbers for a modern Demon or Hellcat as Kevm mentions.   Mid-10s and sometimes high 9s under perfect conditions.   The old Hemi would be 200 yards behind it ... !

Lannis
Ok, you win in ET’s. Go to utube if you would like to see several new muscle cars get spanked by old school heavy hitters.  I’d still rather come in second in a two car race, riding in muscle era car than a new car. Hell anybody can pay 600 bucks a month and ride in a car with no  Heritage or soul. Dang I’m showing my age now😂

[Lannis]

Lannis
Ok, you win in ET’s. Go to utube if you would like to see several new muscle cars get spanked by old school heavy hitters.  I’d still rather come in second in a two car race, riding in muscle era car than a new car. Hell anybody can pay 600 bucks a month and ride in a car with no  Heritage or soul.
 

Well, I've seen all sorts of things on YouTube, so I don't think I'll go for any spanking information there.   

I agree about the Heritage and Soul, but that's all in us old guys heads.  My son's WRX Turbo is gaining soul very quickly in my mind!   

Lannis

[Kev m]

Lannis
Ok, you win in ET’s. Go to utube if you would like to see several new muscle cars get spanked by old school heavy hitters.  I’d still rather come in second in a two car race, riding in muscle era car than a new car. Hell anybody can pay 600 bucks a month and ride in a car with no  Heritage or soul. Dang I’m showing my age now😂

Any given Sunday... plus I bet you'll find a lot of those YouTube videos are showing HEAVILY breathed on/modified old muscle versus stock new.

Bottom line, as much as I was a muscle car NUT, you couldn't pay me to drive that old iron now when the new stuff is SO MUCH BETTER in every way.

No thanks.

Heritage - Soul? Uh, what is this about to become a NEW Guzzi vs Old Guzzi thread?

[oldbike54]

 Then there is a certain Mr Lane Carey and his 1971 428 CJ Mustang running in the Factory Appearing Stock Tire (F.A.S.T.) series who has clicked off a 9.84 at 139 MPH 1/4 mile time . These cars must look exactly like the production versions , right down to air breathers and exhaust manifolds , and run stock size tires . Internal engine mods are mostly unlimited , but getting a fairly large heavy car to launch hard enough to run what were Pro Stock times in the early 1970's is damned impressive .

 Dusty

[cliffrod]

Holy guzziology, batman- these guys need to stick with bikes!

Yes Robin.  It's well known that:

All ford records from 66-back are lost. 67-up records are held by Kevin Marti, who will send a full breakdown of your Ford per Vin number.  No bs, just what it is.  cars can be faked, but it isn't necessarily easy.

Special cars, like lightweight Galaxies, Thunderbolts and later Boss 429 cars were built with involvement of special divisions within ford and some outside shops like Kar Kraft.  Holman moody chassis have unique HM vin numbers and were race only vehicles.  KK cars have specific serial numbers.

Shelby American built all Shelby Mustangs by modifying cars received from Ford.  They got specific SA VIN numbers.  These are generally well documented  and known cars, because they have been focal points since new.  Yes, some can be faked, like a 68 GTCS (not much more than a decal package) but they still have a regular (edit) ford vin on the front inner fender for Marti report verification.

Ford ended production of the FE series 428 CJ engines in 1970, replacing it with the 385 Series 429 including CJ in 1971.  Completely different engines- Not much except plug wires and carb will swap between them.  Ford also completely changed the body between a 1970 and 1971 Mustang.  Finally, There were no 1971 428cj mustangs.

To the BatMobile, Robin....!

[Ncdan]

Ok Kev you’ve backed me in a corner with the new stylist BC so I’ll just have to admit the reason I prefer the old school muscle cars is for one reason, so I can properly  pollute the atmosphere 😂😂😂😂
 

[LowRyter]

You make some very valid points. However most folks who are in

the market for these older vehicles like the 67- early 70s are older guys like myself who owned them as teens. I had  1969 dodge cornet super bee and I’d love to get my hands on one just like her. You are also right about these cars being weak in certain areas like the breaks. This issue is easily updated with 4 wheel disk brake systems for a minimal amount of money. As far as power goes, I wouldn’t put much of my hard earned money on the new hemi out running the 67-70 molar HEMI;)

That's my whole point: "updated"

So take an old Dodge, fixit the way you want, drop a 440 with trips and a plastic SIX PACK hood but put real suspension and brakes and 6 speed and you gotta nice driver.  Put some Super Bee stripes on it.  But why start with a $40k junker muscle car to "restore" it?

Me, since I don't know diddly technical but just like cruisin' in my '08 vette with 6 speed and 430hp. Didn't cost much either.

[Ncdan]

That's my whole point: "updated"

So take an old Dodge, fixit the way you want, drop a 440 with trips and a plastic SIX PACK hood but put real suspension and brakes and 6 speed and you gotta nice driver.  Put some Super Bee stripes on it.  But why start with a $40k junker muscle car to "restore" it?

Me, since I don't know diddly technical but just like cruisin' in my '08 vette with 6 speed and 430hp. Didn't cost much either.

If you are buying a “pattern” vehicle I’d hope to get one for a lot less than 40k one would think.

[Ncdan]

Dan having read several issues of the Hemming's muscle car magazine where the original 1/4 times for some cars that were considered really fast in the era , most of them were 14 second cars from the factory . There are modern Corvettes that will do the 1/4 mile in the 11 second range .

 Dusty

You are right Dusty. I wouldn’t have ever figured these cars today would have ever been allowed to reach the HP and speed they are capable of. The last police car I drove was a Charger pursuit package and it was scary fast.

[Ncdan]

The only new car I owned was a 69 Super Bee bought after getting out of the service...The usual 383 4 speed and Sure Grip differential...I drag raced it many times, low 14's @ 95 MPH just like all the rest of the base model Muscle cars...The best them, Mopar 440 6 pack, Chevy 396/375 and the occasional Cobra jet could run mid 13's with the street tires available then...I was at the track a lot in the late 60's early 70's and a 13 flat car without slicks or headers was far from common....Any punk in a run of mill newer Camaro, Mustang or Challenger can run into the high 12's with the AC on....

I bet you wish you had her back. Do you have any pictures?

[Ncdan]

Demon, Hellcat etc just saying...

That ain’t fair Kev as a hellcat is a factory race car that the passenger side car seat is an option:)

[Ncdan]

A fella not far from here was trying to corner the market on Ford model T's , A's and B's . He built a pole barn that is probably 150 ft long and 20 ft wide to hold them all . Problem was , somewhere about 1999 the value of original early Fords tanked . Cars that were worth maybe $25K-30k   dropped to 1/2 that almost overnight . Now it appears you can buy a really nice restored A model for $22K , which still leaves him in the hole .

 Dusty

Hey Dusty, I just looked at an original model T in really great original shape that I can buy for 10k! PM me if you want to talk about going in together and making a few bucks if you have a market in your neck of the woods.

[oldbike54]

Hey Dusty, I just looked at an original model T in really great original shape that I can buy for 10k! PM me if you want to talk about going in together and making a few bucks if you have a market in your neck of the woods.

 Trust me on this Dan , if it was free I could still find a way to lose money on the deal 

 Dusty

[Kev m]

That ain’t fair Kev as a hellcat is a factory race car that the passenger side car seat is an option:)

Meh, fair-shmare.

I believe the new Corvette is going to have 1000 how.

Think about that.

Family sedans today have the hp muscle cars had when we were kids.

Pickup trucks have more hp today than Ferraris had when we were kids.

Hell my friggin Jeep is near 300 HP. Ha ha.

And I don't actually NEED more than my paltry but beloved V7!