Daytona Belt Replacement & Crank Pulley

[pete roper]

Hadn't been following this thread for some reason. Well done John. Fantastic work.

Pete

[Old Jock]

Hadn't been following this thread for some reason. Well done John. Fantastic work.

Pete

  Praise indeed thanks Pete, something you could do in an afternoon with your eyes closed 

It's just a pity it's all been for nothing really as the bike is in bits to try to sort out the low pressure, which I just can't get to the bottom of.

After tearing it all apart I've read (on one of the other Guzzi forums) about a guy rebuilding a Hi Cam, his atention to detail was waaay higher than a dullard like myself could hope for. However while on there I noticed other posts, not many (but how many install gauges?), stating that they were seeing low pressures. One guy stating he never saw over 55psi no matter the revs and yet his bike still ran.

So in a week or 2 it will all be going back together, then I'm going to check and possibly replace the oil cooler with a bigger unit. My problem when I ran the bike was low (at least from my experience) pressure and climbing oil temperature. At first I thought the climbing temp was realted to the pressure but now I'm not so sure.

John

[Frenchfrog]

Nice work John...out of interest and to address one of my biggest fears Pete...what is a max oil temperature before it gets buggered up ?I run 20/60 mineral and measure the temp with one of the dipstic thermometers.Bike is a roundhead

[Old Jock]

Nice work John...out of interest and to address one of my biggest fears Pete...what is a max oil temperature before it gets buggered up ?I run 20/60 mineral and measure the temp with one of the dipstic thermometers.Bike is a roundhead

Hopefully Pete will come back with a figure for you.

All I can tell you is on my LM 1000 engine the bike runs cooler (another square head).

This will be first time this year (if we ever get a summer) that I have a dipstick temp gauge on the LM 1000, but in general it seems to run cooler than either my 1100 Sporti or Hi Cam engines, which makes sense (less power, therefore less heat to reject).

Just from rule of thumb I think somewhere between 90-100C even 105, after that it's getting pretty toasty. Both my 1100 and Hi Cam can hit these temps PDQ especailly at low RPM in traffic when trying to get out the city.

When I got the low pressure Hi temp problem with the Hi Cam I had 120C on the stick, by that time the oil pressure had dropped to below 10psi and the oil would probably have been thinner than water and on the point of simmering. Despite that, I was quick to kill the engine then let it cool, examination of the mains has shown no damage whatsoever, which is testament to the robustness of these blocks.

Up until now I've been running a 15/50 full synth in them. I wouldn't think going to a 20/50 would make an appreciable difference (but will listen if told different) as the viscosity difference between recommended and what I've run them on is at the cold end and all my problems are at the hot end.

John

[weevee]

Were you getting low oil pressure before you fitted the new pump, John?  And didn't fitting the new one make any measurable difference?  I don't have a pressure gauge on mine, so I'm reliant on the cockpit light.  I didn't ever see it flicker, though, so it never concerned me.

On the subject of cooling..  My bike ran very cool according to its temp. gauge.  It struggled to top 80 deg., if I remember right.  In fact after most runs I took the long route home just to lessen the risk of its oil emulsifying!

..and on another note: Did you think to measure the weight of the steel timing gears before you fitted them?  I weighed them against the alloy ones I removed, and found they were around three times the weight!  The small steel (pump) gear weighed 220g (..up from the 76g of the OEM item) - and the larger steel cam gear weighed close to 1kg (..up from the 330g of the OEM item).  I welcome, of course, the peace-of-mind that comes with their extra strength, but this much extra weight will surely have a considerable effect on their rotational momentum, and may entirely negate the benefits of the Daytona's lightened flywheel.  Food for thought! 

Nonetheless, mine has now been re-assembled, so roll-on the month's end when I'll again be able to ride it.  It's been a long time!

Steve           

[Old Jock]

Hi Steve

Don't know I never ran the bike on the old pump. I got it in the Winter and decided to install the steel gears and pump. That said after the hi temp, I took out the new pump and ran the orignal pump with a drill on the stationary engine and got very similar pressure readings

It's really interesting that your bike runs cool, of course it's an A kit at best and mine is a C so it's making a lot more heat.

Never did weigh the pump and gears that's news, of course I did know they were heavier, but didn't go to the trouble of weighing what you say makes complete sense to me. Personally though I'll take reliability over performance every time. To finish first you first have to finish and all that.

Glad it's now altogether and you can show it off at the IOM (take lots of pictures please).

My gearbox endcase got opened yesterday, was that liitle sucker on tight or what? Hardest yet!!!

Just going to replace the clutch and layshaft bearings with the proper items, some seals and O rings then put it back together. Only doing it because I'm in that far and now waiting on new mains from HMB (not cheap).

The mains were fine but both front and rear at max spec, I was just going to put them back, but then I thought I'd be kicking myself forever if I had not went the extra mile to replace them, just to see if it helps. If it doesn't I'll be pissed but sometimes you just need to roll the dice. You never know!!

Is your oil cooler the orignal item or did the previous owner install a larger unit? I remember it's relocated and if my old adled brain is not mistaken, it was a bigger cooler too. If I'm right I wonder why he did that?

Be interested to know, I'm sure I seen a picture a while back of it

John

[weevee]

Hopefully the new mains you're fitting will bring up your oil pressure, John.  Although I too have read elsewhere that many big-block Guzzi engines give extremely low pressure readings at idling speed - and not a great deal more as the revs climb!

Yes, my bike has a larger oil cooler - although this is an old picture: I've replaced the one shown with a new (similar-sized) Mocal item.  Both had the bike running cool, though.  Maybe the vented sump spacer helps?

I'm not too sure of its engine's spec. really.  I did find these odd markings on the cam covers, that may relate to an alteration to its timing??  It's running a 'C' chip, and a less restrictive exhaust & collector - but until I strip it down further I'd only be guessing.

Steve

                 

[John A]

This is a timely subject for me, I'll be replacing the pump on a Centauro in the near future.  thanks so much for the pictures, I havnt done one in a few years and this sure helps my feeble memory.  He says a pump from an EV will bolt right in.  If this is true, what about the gear ?, wasn't that a troublesome piece that should be replaced?  The belts were done a few years ago and have maybe 2k miles on them, is there any reason to replace those if they look ok once I get in there?

[Old Jock]

Steve

So your's is C kitted, wouldn't think that it would run a C chip without all the other bells & whistles. That is one beautiful machine

Mind telling me the MOCAL model you used was it from "Think Automotive" you got it from? I'm probably going to go this route myself

Did the bike come that way with the vented spacer?

In that case then all the internals from the Broad sump have been junked & the oil filter put back into the bottom of the pan Yes?

I see the pan has also been modified for the oil cooler.

If I was going "in extremis" and doing something similar I think I'd go Paul Daytona's route and install a MotoSpezial Vee sump then add a sandwich plate for the take off to the cooler. Expensive.......... ........ Certainly but it would avoid all the machining

I'm allso Ass-uming that its done away with the stat on the broad sump pipework too, so you have feed to the cooler all the time (not that it's really an issue the way miine generates heat)

John A

Who said an EV pump would fit?

Not me, I wouldn't know. The pump I've got is a DAS and I think Joe Caruso is now manufacturing his own if I'm not mistaken.

As far as the gears go look no further than Steve's video.............. .............Horror Show!!!!!

No probs on the pics if I ever get the time I'll do a write up but right now I have an RS engine and gearbox in pieces and desperately trying to get them back together

John

[John A]

The guy who own the bike said an EV pump will bolt tight in. So I don't know if it does until I get the parts in my hot little hands. where can I get a non-exploding gear?

[Old Jock]

The guy who own the bike said an EV pump will bolt tight in. So I don't know if it does until I get the parts in my hot little hands. where can I get a non-exploding gear?

It's my bike John and it's me who took all the pictures and I'm pretty sure I never mentioned an EV pump because I have no clue if one would install or not

The pump is a Daes or Das unit AFAIK, Joe Caruso in England is the guy to speak to. There are probably others your side of the pond but I just don't know, perhaps Chuck could help.

Super guy and really knowledgable, he will not fleece you and doesn't make much money from it, BUT it won't be cheap.

PM me and I'll pass on his email (I just don't like posting it up on a public forum)

John

[John A]

It's my bike John and it's me who took all the pictures and I'm pretty sure I never mentioned an EV pump because I have no clue if one would install or not

John

No I meant the guy who owned the Centauro that I will be doing the work on said that an EV pump will work. Ill dig into that further and write the results here.  Nice pics!

[weevee]

This is the oil cooler I now have, John.  Bought from Matt Lewis Racing: MOCAL 10 ROW 115MM ENGINE OIL COOLER -6JIC OC1107-6 ACV
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MOCAL-10-ROW-115MM-ENGINE-OIL-COOLER-6JIC-OC1107-6-ACV-/401447342144  (..it's cheaper from their website!)

Yes, the vented spacer came with the bike and the oil-feed mods were already done.  The filter is in the sump.  The sender you can see that's screwed into the back of the sump supplies current to an oil-temperature gauge mounted on the fairing (..I'd have put it with the cockpit clocks were I to have fitted it originally).

Steve

ps.  The sump spacer was made by a German company named Finkentey-Klaumann.  By coincidence, its headquarters is only a mile or two from where I purchased the bike!  (..the rough cast areas running left to right are the venting tunnels).

 

[Old Jock]

Thanks Steve

I'm assuming that the reason these mods were put in place was because PO might have been experiencing hi oil temp.

It seems a lot of work to go to and then the belt and braces of a gauge too. It's saying to me it was getting hot and action was taken to alleviate that, possibly after the C kit was installed.

Much appreciated

John

[Old Jock]

John A

I happened to be onto Joe about something different and he mentioned the EV pump setup

Here is what he said we were also talking about a chain setup too, so that got thrown into the mix, no clue if you are planning that route or not

"The EV oil pump will fit his centauro

However,  all he has to do is to fit the complete chain and sprockets and tensioner complete

as the alternative to the das oil pump and steel timing gears.

The thing is to make sure the oil pump has 16mm wide gears as fitted to the V11 bikes.

To get the higher output from the 16mm oil pump gears it spins faster due to the chain ratio

compared to the standard centauro set up which has 21 mm oil pump wide gears as standard.

I think that's quite a difference but it supplies enough pressure as many have fitted the v11 set up.

so if he fits the timing chain and sprockets he does not need to get any gears made.

chain and sprockets is the cheaper fix and then its up to him to decide."

Just thought I'd let you know

John

[John A]

Thanks, I told the Centauro owner that if he did anything to go with the complete set up from Joe.  I wonder what the failure rate is, there seem to be a fair amount of Centauros with 50+ K miles on them. Thanks again, good info!