04 HD Sportster Roadster question

[MMRanch]

Yea Tom

If you'll strap the rear down and compress the rear shocks till the swing arm pivot point , center of front pulley , and the rear axle are all in a strait line ... then , that will be the longest distance the belt will ever need to stretch too.   Adjust it at that point and don't worry about how loose it is when you let the rear shocks loose ! 

I've got 38,000 + miles on my Harley belt and it still looks and feel like new .       I got a buddy just north of San Antonio who has over 160,000 miles on his LS-650 belt.  My LS-650 has over 42,000 on it's belt.   

Amazes me that Honda still uses "CHAINS"   

[Kev m]

Yea Tom

If you'll strap the rear down and compress the rear shocks till the swing arm pivot point , center of front pulley , and the rear axle are all in a strait line ... then , that will be the longest distance the belt will ever need to stretch too.   Adjust it at that point and don't worry about how loose it is when you let the rear shocks loose ! 

That's probably the best/most thorough way to figure it out.

Me, I'd probably just loosen it up a bit (5-10 mm out of spec) and take it for a test ride.

[bacongrease]

posted before, one guys opinion, so take it as it is.....


http://www.jamesrussellpublishing.biz/sportster1200.html

[Rough Edge racing]

 I also prefer a chain drive ....But...I swapped from a belt to a chain on my 97 Buell....I also changed the overall ratio more to my liking...But on late Sportster engines there is no cush drive on the driveline...In certain situation there was an odd vibration I didn't like...I sold the chain conversion for what I paid for it and reinstalled the belt with a different front pulley to change the ratio....The pulley was about 150 bucks...Riding a tube frame Buell with carefully tuned engine will change your mind about "agricultural " Harley engines.

         
           
         

[Kev m]

This might be a reason...
I helped a friend of mine change the belt on his (RK I think)that had about 50K miles. We used my stand and had to remove the primary case the clutch the rear swing arm. Took half a day!
Also since the 6th gear is almost useless while cursing down the slab at anything but flat road and less than 85 mph he looked into changing the ratio to something low enough to make top gear useful but the cost of new sprockets gave him pause and he passed.

If you do your own maintence its a factor to consider.

No, actually it's not. The fact that the BT's are set-up that way has nothing to do with whether or not a belt NEEDS to be set up that way (see the Sportster with the right side drive belt instead of the left/primary setup on the BTs).

And you probably will never NEED a sprocket, that's why costs are high, because they don't generally need to be replaced or swapped.

I have no problem with the ratios in my RK.

posted before, one guys opinion, so take it as it is.....


http://www.jamesrussellpublishing.biz/sportster1200.html

Well it's just as stupid now as it was then.

As a career professional in the publishing industry I have a real problem with this near illiterate calling himself a publisher.

The verbal vomit on that site (which you are helping to promote) is nothing more than a horribly disingenuous attempt at drawing traffic to his site for his own promotion.

Most of the tech crap is way out of date and drastically overstated.

[Kev m]

"No, actually it's not. The fact that the BT's are set-up that way has nothing to do with whether or not a belt NEEDS to be set up that way (see the Sportster with the right side drive belt instead of the left/primary setup on the BTs).

And you probably will never NEED a sprocket, that's why costs are high, because they don't generally need to be replaced or swapped.

I have no problem with the ratios in my RK. "

I don't really understand that.

Pulling what I described was required for changing the belt. Also if you change the ratio then you have to get a custom sprocket,(probably the rear) and chances are a custom length belt. I don't want to start a debate about the merits of the system, just explaining what we had to do to change the belt and demonstrate why a chain isn't all that bad. Anybody that changes the belt like I have described should really have some mechanical ability as well.

As far for the 6th gear, I have ridden the machine and it would not pull 80 mph up slope on the slab without down shifting to 5th and he many times runs in 5th at 80 which gives him better mileage.      (operation mostly at 4,000+ above MSL out west.)

That is why he looked into changing the rear ratio. This machine is in good nick and has good power.

OK, let me try again.


You used this story as an example why in your opinion chains are better than belts.

My answer was that your story doesn't prove that, the fact that is is a belt and not a chain has nothing to do with it. The belt does NOT have to be placed behind a primary, that all comes down to transmission design.

The belt on a Sportster is on the RIGHT SIDE (not behind the primary on the left like that RK) so all you need to do to access it is remove the belt cover (and possibly part of the rear exhaust pipe depending on the setup).

So no - the mere fact that a belt is used does not require all that labor.

Your story is really about a specific design trait of the Harley Big Twins, one that I'm not sure why they persist with, but probably because belt replacement IS SO RARE.

As for 6th gear, I have no idea of the year or state of tune, it could be a TC96, but my TC103, stock fueling is geared just fine, I wouldn't change the rear sprocket (or primary) in search of different gearing. Your friend might just downshift to 5th on a slope no or lose a couple of pounds no?

But yes, in that specific instance, if he is looking to change the belt, that specific design does make it more work than it needs to be.

[Kev m]

No my post was to answer the question "why does Honda still use chains

My answer "This could be one reason"

Had nothing to do with debate on chains v/s belts.

I guess we're having communication difficulties this morning.

Isn't the question "Why does Honda still use chains" equal to "Why does Honda think chains are better than belts"?

Your post about ease of replacing a belt has nothing to do with it being A BELT. There's no reason a belt HAS to be harder to replace than a chain. So that has nothing to do with it.

Maybe the rest of the post touches on a reason. The only advantage a chain has over a belt (except in very high hp applications) is that you in theory can change a sprocket and shorten a chain (without replacing it) and chains tend to be a cheaper than belts (though you should expect to replace chains and sprockets multiple times over the life of a belt).

But yes ratio changes might be easier.

[Kev m]

Ah, yes, sorry, I see what you mean.

And yeah YMMV - ambient conditions certainly would play a part.

But man, if I never buy another bike with a chain, that would be ok with me.

[Rough Edge racing]

  Chains are  about 1/3 the width of a belt that can be be an advantage with tight packaging of components....belts won't work well in situations where debris can get between the belt and pulley......And in my mind, a chain has a mechanical look to it and looks cool...

[oldbike54]

 All fine and good , but who makes that ?

 Dusty

[oldbike54]

I'll take that to mean the  consumer?

Well my guess is that only real enthusiast really pay much attention or care what kind of final drive system the machines have.
We gear head types will always debate the merits of each .

Given the choice?? Depending on the foreseen use/configuration/climate, I would prefer a chain drive. Efficient and inexpensive. Having said that though, I'm stuck in the middle with you guys it seems.

:-)

 Sorry Mike , was referencing the comment made earlier about no one asking "who makes that" . Should have clarified it a bit . Quite honestly , every HD I have ever ridden felt numb and disconnected from me , except for the 1939 EL that belonged to a friend , that thing let the rider feel everything 

 Dusty

[Lesman]

I had a 2006 1200R. Gas mileage should not be an issue. Tank range could be an issue. I had a 1991 1200. After mods it could get down to a 50 mile range if you rode in anger.  2006 1200 got a consistent 40+ mpg. It had great brakes compared to my GSPD. The brakes on mine were very good . Rear shocks were the absolute worst examples of any bike that I ever owned. Honda 90 had better rear shocks. The seat is really thin. I had the world's loudest exhaust. Quiet is better.
I had a quick release windshield. It's a great bike except for the rear shocks and seat.

[analog kid]

I had a 2006 1200R. Gas mileage should not be an issue. Tank range could be an issue. I had a 1991 1200. After mods it could get down to a 50 mile range if you rode in anger.  2006 1200 got a consistent 40+ mpg. It had great brakes compared to my GSPD. The brakes on mine were very good . Rear shocks were the absolute worst examples of any bike that I ever owned. Honda 90 had better rear shocks. The seat is really thin. I had the world's loudest exhaust. Quiet is better.
I had a quick release windshield. It's a great bike except for the rear shocks and seat.

Thanks for posting.
I figured tank range would be an issue. I had a sportbike with a small tank and an appetite for fuel. That was one reason I sold it. I figure there are bigger tanks available if range becomes an issue.

In my 1.5 hours of ride time so far I found the rear shocks not as bad as I thought they would be, but yeah, they're cheapies.
Surprised at the engines ability to rev. It's easier to blip for a downshift than on my Mille. Must have a lighter flywheel. But then the Titanic had a lighter flywheel than the goose.
Took awhile to acclimatize,  I began by driving it like a guzzi - revs and working the gearbox. Bad effect. I was gnashing gears all over the place. Better now.

Since I don't yet have a service manual, can anyone tell me if there should be free play at the clutch lever? Mine has zero free play,  clutch works well though. Owners manual has no info on that. Lube cable or no? It's a mighty pull.

And how's the Clymer service manual for the 2004 and up Sportsters? Good enough or invest in Factory $ervice manual? I wont be overhauling, just all regular maint.

[Kev m]

Thanks for posting.
I figured tank range would be an issue. I had a sportbike with a small tank and an appetite for fuel. That was one reason I sold it. I figure there are bigger tanks available if range becomes an issue.

In my 1.5 hours of ride time so far I found the rear shocks not as bad as I thought they would be, but yeah, they're cheapies.
Surprised at the engines ability to rev. It's easier to blip for a downshift than on my Mille. Must have a lighter flywheel. But then the Titanic had a lighter flywheel than the goose.
Took awhile to acclimatize,  I began by driving it like a guzzi - revs and working the gearbox. Bad effect. I was gnashing gears all over the place. Better now.

Since I don't yet have a service manual, can anyone tell me if there should be free play at the clutch lever? Mine has zero free play,  clutch works well though. Owners manual has no info on that. Lube cable or no? It's a mighty pull.

And how's the Clymer service manual for the 2004 and up Sportsters? Good enough or invest in Factory $ervice manual? I wont be overhauling, just all regular maint.

2-3 mm off play at cable end, measured at cable housing when pulling it lightly back from the perch is fine.

But there is more to it than that for a full adjustment (there's a ramp screw under the Derby cover that controls clutch ramp release point).

You can lube cable ends but it won't make a difference in the pull.

Don't waste your money on the Clymer.

If you're not going to buy the one from www.cyclepedia.com (the carb one is pretty damn good, I used a good bit of it when I wrote the EFI one for them), then go OEM.

[MMRanch]

Guys

For one of my bikes I have two front pulleys (two teeth different) .   to change belts , all it takes is :
remove the rear shock on the belt side ,
loosen the adjuster
remove side cover over F/pulley
slide the belt off

less than an hour ... 

Adjust it one time for the life of the Rear Tire , never any messy oil/wax/anything 

As Kevin said :  "But man, if I never buy another bike with a chain, that would be ok with me."



 

[analog kid]

Last weekend, Oct 21, was the first (and probably final for 2017) meeting of the Creaky Knees Motorcycle Club.

In honour of the approaching Halloween, we rode past cemeteries in an effort to raise the dead with our insufficiently muffled bikes. It worked, I saw zombies.

For a change, my riding buddy rode south to meet me at my house for the ride - which never happens, usually I ride 40 minutes north to meet him at his place. I think he was just excited to ride my bike.

He pointed out a couple more non-stock details like the LED taillight. I knew the red cover had been changed for smoked, but had not noticed the LEDs underneath. Its not impressive. The running lights in the rear turnsignals are brighter than the taillight, and the brake light is insufficient. Added to the change list. 




 

[Kev m]

You should be able to score a take-off tail-light cheap. The LEDs are a bit overkill on a charging system that's fine and a bike that already has the plug-n-play additional running/tail-light kit for the turn signals.

[analog kid]

Since I started this thread, I figured I'd finish it off.  End-of-chapter, so to speak.

CAUTION:  long post. 

I've got a rainy evening, time to kill,  and a bottle of wine - watch out! 

I got the bike back on the road. Bought in Oct 2017, from the estate of the woman who lived across the street. Got a good price because I knew the family, and the bike was sold as-is. It wouldn't have passed a safety check for registration. 

I was there when she took delivery of the bike, worked on it a couple of times when she had maintenance issues, rode with her twice and test-rode the bike once. That was after the Harley crowd told her the bike had no power and was unrideable without loud pipes  . I disagreed; thought it was a very fun ride and its power was just fine.
She went with them....

It ran, but had been stored a couple of years. It needed garage time and a cash infusion. I picked away at it through the summer of 2018, but didn't have the time to devote to it. I began work in earnest in Fall 2018, slowed down through the coldest winter months, then finished off in May. 
Got it street plated and am now riding it whenever I can. 

It had been slightly chopperized, so had to undo that. 
2 new tires to replace the circa 2006 Baldini Specials. 
New handlebars to replace the bent buckhorns. Parking lot drop by the PO. 
New grips.
New front brake light microswitch...due to <ahem> ...current owner induced damage.
Clutch disassembly to check for wear. All good.
Completed all the sched maintenance work up to current mileage, since the bike came with no maintenance history...though I would have done all that anyways....
Fork oil, engine oil, brake fluid change. Pulled all the calipers, cleaned everything up. Pulled the swingarm , cleaned everything, bearing check. 
Bought used, stock mufflers to replace the unbaffled V&H Straightshots previously fitted. Fiddled with jetting, which was stinking rich (literally stinking!). Wish I knew which shop she took it to, so I don't go there...

Ya, I have the planet's rarest commodity: a quiet Harley. And that's exactly how I want it.

The biggest niggle was that the bike had been worked on by lackadaisical people who didn't give a crap. It had quality add-ons, but previous work was careless : spacers missing, washers missing, grommets missing, incorrect bolts installed, and my pet peeve: stripped threads and damaged hardware. 

I spent alot of money simply on hardware. At least Harley hardware is cheap. 

Mongo worked on this bike in the past. Mongo like big torque on little fasteners. Put down the impact wrench Mongo! 

I removed the crash bars; I appreciate them for function, but don't like the look. And I'm aware the wide Mustang seat looks out of place , but it's so much better than the stocker.

So, after all this, I'm a hair away from posting it for sale. It's cleaned, the pics are taken, I just have to write the ad.

I love the bike, it has a lot in common with an old Guzzi,  but....circumstance s.

It needs money put into suspension - cheap dampers when new (front & rear) don't get better after 50000km. I'm not a city rider or barhopper.  Rideability is paramount. 
Riding at twilight last week, I hit an unseen frost heave in a curve and damn near left the road. My spine protested mightily.

The conundrum:  with limited cash to spend, should it go to the HD or into the Guzzi Mille? Or better yet, into my LM 3 project which I've left unattended far, far too long. And how long can I store a bike in my mother-in-laws garage because I have run out of space in my own? 
Also, plating and insuring one less bike is a consideration.

So my HD interlude may be ending for now. It was an education.I enjoyed it.  I'd do it again with the right HD model......(XLCR, XR1000, XL Roadster, my friends 5000km '91 FXR - owned since new....you get the idea)  I never worked on an HD before. I learned stuff (that's a whole other thread!).

One day ago (27 june)  I fired up the Mille from winter storage. I'd been busy all spring with the HD , and the weather was crap anyways. Riding both bikes back-to-back was a riot  . Turns out I had gotten used to Harleys two-button turn signal switches (one switch on right, other on left) which I had cursed initially. The Sportster has better brakes, or at least, better feel. And in spite of its weight, it's an easy bike to pull out of the garage and ride away. Nice low end torque . A low seat - which i didnt used to care about....but my bad knees do.

A lot to like..











upload photos

[Kev m]

 

Great report.

Life is good.

Ride safe!

[s1120]

All in all it looked like a fun project. I had looked at getting a sportster when I was shopping. I had avoided HD's at first, because it wasn't really what I wanted...  But you cant beat the huge used market, and parts, and info are EVERYWHERE!!  I saw that a sporty could fill my needs. But you know... a Guzzi was the right bike, and what I really wanted. You got some nice bikes to work with.. a few bucks from the sale of the sporty put into the others might be a good thing. And as you said.. you learned a lot also.

[Rough Edge racing]

 I bought a 2001 883 Sportster a few months back as some of you know...I bought it because of the very low price and it looked good...I like the bike but it has one very bad problem...It is without a doubt the most uncomfortable bike I have ever owned.I'm 6 foot 175 pounds.The low seating postion, it is not a hugger model, along with the mid postion foot rests makes me feel like man on a kids bicycle...I sold the LePera seat and found a modified stock seat with extra padding..Better but it still sucks.. I fabricated a set of rear set pegs and controls similar in design to Sato.. Now it's a much better bike... .I also blew a pile of money on a 2-1 Supertrapp exhaust, a set of Koni shocks from a Guzzi that are the correct length and spring rate. I pulled the front springs, cut off most of the tight wound "progressive" coils, made a longer spacer..... What a difference in back road performance...I will have photos shortly...

[EldoMike]

My 04 1200R. Long gone. 

I bought this bike from Shorty (seems I buy something from him every few years) ..I really liked it but did seem to have a vibration...didn't keep it long enough to figure it out but would buy another rubber mount Sporty (and I have)...

[Shorty]

I bought this bike from Shorty (seems I buy something from him every few years) ..I really liked it but did seem to have a vibration...didn't keep it long enough to figure it out but would buy another rubber mount Sporty (and I have)...

Stay tuned. You never know when I will come to my senses and have another purge.