Stelvio not starting ...

[Kiwi_Roy]

Well, I took apart and cleaned the battery terminals, the frame ground lug, the positive cable to the solenoid, and the "trigger" wire for the solenoid, and no change at all.   As I took the connectors apart, I noted that they were already pretty clean, but they're really bright and tight now.

So out with the voltmeter.   When I turn on the key and press the starter button, I can hear the little faint "click" of a cube relay, which holds for three or four seconds before clicking "off" ... but there is ZERO voltage at the trigger wire for the solenoid - the needle doesn't even twitch.   

So something is broken, or something is signalling the relay to NOT energize that wire.   The neutral light is "on", I've cycled it in and out of gear, and on this bike, you don't need to have the sidestand up or the clutch pulled in to start it.

What's the next evolution?

Lannis

On the other side of the start relay/s is the yellow wire fed from fuse 2
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2008_Stelvio.gif
I mentioned that the yellow wire also feeds the number plate light, is it on and stays on when you press Start?

I believe the relay you hear click On and then off a few seconds later is (3)
Relay (4) is held on by the start button  but I don't think it will pick up if (3) doesn't close first.

Look at the number plate light, I believe it will tell you if there's 12 Volts available for the start.

Any chance you dropped the bike, I'm thinking of the tip-over relay, it gave me trouble on my Griso.

[cappisj1]

I went through this with my 08 Norge. Checked and cleaned all wires, already had the MPH update harness and replaced the starter. I was already using a replacement Interstate battery so kind of overlooked it. Had interstate test it and they said it was on the low side of ok but should be good. After replacing the starter and realizing that when I connected a jump pack it fired right off, I talked interstate into giving me another battery. The bike now fires every time I ask it to. Long story short try a fresh battery.

[Chuck in Indiana]

You may not have to replace the relay. Sometimes, it's nothing more than corrosion on the relay base. Pull the relay, squirt a little deoxit, reinstall, wiggle it about.. and Bob's your mother's brother.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Any chance you dropped the bike, I'm thinking of the tip-over relay, it gave me trouble on my Griso.

Yeah, but it was a long time ago in Nova Scotia. 

[Lannis]

Yeah, but it was a long time ago in Nova Scotia. 

No one's going to accuse you of losing your memory!!   

It's been over twice - once "a long time ago in Nova Scotia" as you say (2012) on a gravel road transition to pavement, and once about 3 years ago at a local intersection (foot sliding on gravel).    But it's recovered from both of those.

I've tested the battery and it's as hot as a new one ... that's the advantage of having a battery tester.   No way can a bad battery sneak around a battery load tester like it can sneak around a voltmeter.   You can load it until it screams, and you know it's right.

OOH OOH I have a new piece of information (Kiwi Roy) - not only does the starter not energize, but the glove box door doesn't work either.   With ignition on and bike in neutral (running or not), the glove box should work but it doesn't.   So now I'm looking for a circuit that is common to the starter solenoid feed and the glove box door, possibly a fuse.   Back to the wiring diagram.

And on that "how much technology is too much" thread?   If I didn't have this forum, my newest motorcycle would be the '75 Norton or a '68 V700.   Guaranteed.  Ok, maybe a SP1000.

This morning I'm off to the woods with a chain saw to finish clearing a walking trail.   Supposed to rain this afternoon, so back out in the shop then ....

Lannis

[Chuck in Indiana]

So now I'm looking for a circuit that is common to the starter solenoid feed and the glove box door, possibly a fuse.   Back to the wiring diagram.

Aux fuses #24

[Wayne Orwig]

The schematic I have.....

The glove box relay coil is grounded by the neutral switch, which you say the light is working on. So that SHOULD be fine.
Power to the glove box, also powers the license plate light and other things. Is the license plate light on?
The line also send power to the relay contact for the starter.

That power goes:
Battery -> 30amp fuse -> ignition switch -> 15 amp fuse -> starter relay/glovebox/etc.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Chances are the 15 Amp fuse has popped, really its a bit light for the current it can see 30-40 Amps for the starter solenoid alone even without the other loads, I would use a 20

[Lannis]

This morning I'm off to the woods with a chain saw to finish clearing a walking trail.   Supposed to rain this afternoon, so back out in the shop then ....

Lannis

Robert Frost said "Something there is That doesn't love a wall".   Well, "Something there is That doesn't love a trail" too, and it's like the Old Forest on the borders of Buckland.   It's like there's a malevolent spirit that drops trees across the trail - there must have been 50 pines that have uprooted or snapped and fallen across a mile-long trail.   No willow trees there, so Old Man Hickory is doing it despite my having a saw to combat him.   I'm winning at the moment, though - clear all the way through.

And came home to  SUCCESS in the shop too.   Pulled the 15 amp fuse on the front near side of the fuse box, and there was a lovely gap in it.   (Aren't those fuses a pain to get to?   Mine was the smallest hand that would get in there - anyone with a big hand would have to get a petite helper or pull the fairing).

Had to run into town because I had never pulled a fuse on the Stelvio and didn't realize they were mini-blade fuses - I have the world's supply of standard blade fuses, so off to Advance Auto for an assortment.

Came home, replaced the blown 15A with a 20A (I'm coming to get Kiwi Roy if my wiring melts, although I've seen him elbow deep in his EV's wiring and he knows what he's about), and replaced the other fuses just for drill, turned on the ignition, checked to see if the glove box opened ... it DID ... punched the starter and .... NOTHING.   Nothing but much cursing and gnashing of teeth until I realized that I hadn't connected the solenoid trigger back up, getting in a hurry and all, connected it back and it starts like a good 'un.

I did discover, after the fact, that this exact same problem was discussed on guzzitech back in 2012 and diagnosed by Mr. Orwig - in that case it was a dodgy fusebox socket instead of a blown fuse, but the same fuse.   Everything old is new again ...  BUT if my starter quits in future, I'll check to see if the glove box works and if it doesn't, I'll know where I'm at, and with an assortment of spare fuses in the tool kit, although I expect no further problems ...

Thanks all - the moral support is as important as the technical support when facing these High Technology Problems.   

Lannis

[LowRyter]

All interesting stuff but I'm curious how a glove box works in the first place and how it stops working due to a fuse?   

[severely]

Congratulations Lannis.

[Tom H]

Yeah!!!

Tom

[Markcarovilli]

Well that was easy - glad you got it sorted.

Mark

[Wayne Orwig]

Came home, replaced the blown 15A with a 20A (I'm coming to get Kiwi Roy if my wiring melts, although I've seen him elbow deep in his EV's wiring and he knows what he's about), and replaced the other fuses just for drill, turned on the ignition, checked to see if the glove box opened ... it DID ... punched the starter and .... NOTHING.   Nothing but much cursing and gnashing of teeth until I realized that I hadn't connected the solenoid trigger back up, getting in a hurry and all, connected it back and it starts like a good 'un.

Yea , Kiwi is right on that fuse. The wiring will handle 20 amps and sill pop the fuse if there is an issue.

Since it popped the 15, you may have a sticking solenoid, or startus interuptus, creeping in, that prevents the solenoid from moving fast enough. That longer duration load pops the fuse.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Yea , Kiwi is right on that fuse. The wiring will handle 20 amps and sill pop the fuse if there is an issue.

Since it popped the 15, you may have a sticking solenoid, or startus interuptus, creeping in, that prevents the solenoid from moving fast enough. That longer duration load pops the fuse.

Yep again. I just went through this with the Mighty Scura. Did the Startus Interuptus fix, then the starter solenoid wouldn't engage when the engine was hot and still blew the fuse. Put in a 60some dollar starter from Amazon, and no more issues.

All interesting stuff but I'm curious how a glove box works in the first place and how it stops working due to a fuse?   

The schematic shows a solenoid on the glove box.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I don't believe the factory knows how much current the solenoid draws
For one thing it only draws 35-40 Amps for about 20 milliseconds normally, that's too fast for a normal meter to register.
For another reason, they don't show the second high current winding on any schematic, they only show the wimpy coil that draws 10 Amps, a 15 would be appropriate for 10 Amps of load.

As a test I deliberately arranged the wiring so that the second coil stays in circuit for a bit longer the 15 will pop in about 1 second.
All the Guzzi starters Bosch, Valeo and the Chinese ones on V7s have this second high current coil that doesn't show on any Guzzi schematic.
BTW the V7 solenoid pulls 35 Amps

Update:
    When I joined the VII Lemans forum, I couldn't understand why so many owners were talking about Startus Interuptus. It just so happened I had bought a 2001 VII Sport, almost the only Guzzi that never suffers from weak starting. all earlier and later models suffer due to a weak starter relay supply. One day I ran my Ohmeter over the solenoid coii and got what I thought was a really low resistance, about 1/2 Ohm which would cause 24 Amps to flow so I investigated further and found one coil measuring 1.2 Ohms (10 Amps) but also a second coil measuring only 0.25 Ohms (48 Amps). Its this second high current coil that does the lions share of pulling the starter into mesh, without a decent current like about 30 Amps the starter will sit there all day or until the 15 Amp fuse pops. Once the starter is engaged this coil is turned off and the solenoid current drops to around 10 Amps what the fuse was sized for.
 
Almost any Guzzi can fail from Startus Interuptus with the exception of the early spline frames , early 2 Valve Griso and one other that escapes me for the moment.
However the nice part is its so easy to fix the problem with a simple inexpensive wiring change to boost the current through the high current coil. The higher the current the quicker it operates and the less heat is involved.

[guzzisteve]

I have a box of Cat starter buttons made for current, bubber heavy duty switch made to step on or push.
I'll send you one, mount it on the dash. Run heavy fused wire to it then to solenoid from batt. to hell w/rest of sys, your bike goes all the time.  I installed a few over the years on BMW's also.

[Lannis]

I don't believe the factory knows how much current the solenoid draws
For one thing it only draws 35-40 Amps for about 20 milliseconds normally, that's too fast for a normal meter to register.

You MIGHT think that an electrical design engineer responsible for designing and testing solenoids could have invested a few hours pay in a peak-hold meter, or maybe a scope?   Oops, I forgot - GUZZI CONTENT!   

[Kiwi_Roy]

You MIGHT think that an electrical design engineer responsible for designing and testing solenoids could have invested a few hours pay in a peak-hold meter, or maybe a scope?   Oops, I forgot - GUZZI CONTENT!   

Or even a proper schematic of the starter.

[Lannis]

Or even a proper schematic of the starter.

I suppose it's part of the "character" of owning a Guzzi, to have a substandard starting circuit that hasn't been fixed in 30 years, and components that aren't up to the job.

Besides carrying spare fuses, at the next impending failure I'll take pyoungblood's suggestion of a heavier ground cable, although the one on it works when everything's clean and optimal, and prepare to make the "startus interruptus" mod.

On my '75 electric start Norton, I've fixed so that it works every time by simply running a clean heavy ground cable directly from the battery to the starter.   It's no longer an "electric assist" but a real electric starter; everything else is stock and it works like a champ.   Norton probably saved 43p per bike with the OEM cable and for that, they gained an eternal reputation for not knowing what they were doing ...

Lannis

[Lannis]

I have a box of Cat starter buttons made for current, bubber heavy duty switch made to step on or push.
I'll send you one, mount it on the dash. Run heavy fused wire to it then to solenoid from batt. to hell w/rest of sys, your bike goes all the time.  I installed a few over the years on BMW's also.

I'm so used to being coddled by the safety stuff that I'd be starting the thing in gear and running myself into a gas pump!

But if I have to do too much fooling around with the current snake's nest of starting circuits, switches, relays, and interconnecting stuff, I might just do that rather than go mad trying to figure out Guzzi's logic ....

Lannis

[jacksonracingcomau]

Not sure if I’m reading this correctly
Did a ten year old bike blow a fuse and create havoc on the net?

Just appalling, word gets out and Guzzi are finished, did they not even provide a spare fuse ?

In the old days fuses lasted indefinitely but carrying a spare was normal, I have a 42 year old spare, still carry it, just in case.
Glad it’s fixed

[Kiwi_Roy]

I suppose it's part of the "character" of owning a Guzzi, to have a substandard starting circuit that hasn't been fixed in 30 years, and components that aren't up to the job.

Besides carrying spare fuses, at the next impending failure I'll take pyoungblood's suggestion of a heavier ground cable, although the one on it works when everything's clean and optimal, and prepare to make the "startus interruptus" mod.

On my '75 electric start Norton, I've fixed so that it works every time by simply running a clean heavy ground cable directly from the battery to the starter.   It's no longer an "electric assist" but a real electric starter; everything else is stock and it works like a champ.   Norton probably saved 43p per bike with the OEM cable and for that, they gained an eternal reputation for not knowing what they were doing ...

Lannis

I don't know anything about a Norton electric start but it seems to be similar to a lot of Japanese with a permanently engaged starter and simple clutch
Unlike the Bosch and Valeo Guzzi starters that have to move a heavy gear into mesh with the ring gear, I think it takes a minimum of about 30 Amps through the solenoid coils to do that.
My favourite is the Bosch it's so simple and industrial, give it enough current it will work forever.

https://www.google.ca/search?q=Norton+electric+start&tbm=isch&source=univ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwii8IOGq4XmAhWXGjQIHe2iCKgQsAR6BAgGEAE&biw=1324&bih=1354#imgrc=AiaM8h7gF22GWM

[Lannis]

Not sure if I’m reading this correctly
Did a ten year old bike blow a fuse and create havoc on the net?

Nope, just a very useful (to me) discussion about how to diagnose and solve an electrical problem.   The replacement of a fuse is not an issue - it's figuring out whether the non-starting problem is:

(a) A Guzzi design problem that Guzzi has forced the owners to learn how to fix rather than fixing it themselves (startus interruptus)
(b) A ten year old relay that has gone bad
(c) A corroded high-current connection that needs to be cleaned up
(d) A ten year old blown fuse

Neither you nor I nor any of the experienced Guzzi folks knew, or had any way of knowing, what the problem was until a bit of list-directed diagnostic work was done and fed back, and after a couple hours of poking with a voltmeter and poring over wiring diagrams by helpful and interested folks, it was figured out, and a little packet of spare fuses procured.  Not only that, but a useful diagnostic ("if the glove box doesn't work either, it's aux fuse 2 (24)") is now on file for Stelvio eternity.

How this sociable and cooperative process can be construed as "Internet Havoc" rather than one of the core reasons for the existence of a forum like this, I don't know.   A long winter ending in the southern hemisphere I suppose.

Glad it’s fixed

That's a good thing!

Lannis

[Lannis]

I don't know anything about a Norton electric start but it seems to be similar to a lot of Japanese with a permanently engaged starter and simple clutch
Unlike the Bosch and Valeo Guzzi starters that have to move a heavy gear into mesh with the ring gear, I think it takes a minimum of about 30 Amps through the solenoid coils to do that.

The Norton starter has a one-way "sprag" clutch to engage the starter with the primary chain.   Like the first 1965 Panhead electric start Harley-Davidsons (which I also owned), there are/were a couple marginal things about it, the main one being simply a too-small ground strap for starter current to go through.   

The other is that if the bike isn't tuned right (too lean or timing too far advanced), it will "kick back" and wreck the sprag clutch.

Improve the electrical connections and get the bike running right, and the stock setup works just fine.   Mine still has the old Zener diode charging system which also is working fine 44 years down the road ..... provides plenty of juice for the battery to start the bike on a regular basis.

Ignore the issues, and it'll either quit early or break the starter, and people will say "See?   More cheap Lucas junk".

Lannis

[Wayne Orwig]

You MIGHT think that an electrical design engineer responsible for designing and testing solenoids could have invested a few hours pay in a peak-hold meter, or maybe a scope?   Oops, I forgot - GUZZI CONTENT!   

The fuse pops, when the starter solenoid sticks. That may be by design, and may actually be a GOOD thing. Even if it is frustrating.

[Lannis]

The fuse pops, when the starter solenoid sticks. That may be by design, and may actually be a GOOD thing. Even if it is frustrating.

Maybe, in the "That's not a bug; that's a FEATURE" and "We'll fix it in the documentation" category!   I'll bet they didn't go into it with that in mind, though ....

Lannis

[Lannis]

It's a strange little hexagonal spacer, 13mm AF. It has a 4mm threaded bit on the inner side that the earth straps bolt under to the gearbox and then it's got another 4mm thread on the outer end that the starter motor cover screw goes into. Be careful not to over tighten it or it will strip!

Far as I can tell this is the last post from Pete Roper, who is now a "guest".

Not again?   How will I find out about "Thingie" if he's not going to tell me?

Lannis