Bub sump extensions

[dxhall]

Any opinions on the desire ability of these?  They add about one quart of oil capacity, and have larger fins than the stock sump.  I suppose those two things would produce lower oil temps.  Since oil temps aren’t a problem with Guzzis, though, I’m thinking that only race bikes would need these things.  True?

https://denver.craigslist.org/mpo/d/grand-junction-moto-guzzi-bub-oil-sump/7090494035.html

[Old Jock]

So I've never had a BUB bit there are a lot of threads on here about them

I do run an extended sump on an LM1000 engine but not a BUB. The idea is to lower the oil out of the way of the crank not to increase oil capacity, decreases foaming and helps cooling. The MotoSpezial sump I use works great and looks similar (oil filter at the front). The BUB should do the same

AFAIK the one big failing on these are the flexi lines, any of them come off and your engine will be toast in short order. Could be modified though to use metal tubes with compression fittings or the like, but I would not want to use flexi hoses and jubilee/hose clips in the oil lines

[berniebee]

Worth the money just for the convenience of an external oil filter!

[dxhall]

If the extension doesn’t create extra oil capacity, I don’t see the purpose.  Windage losses (power losses caused by the moving crank going below the oil level in the sump) on a Guzzi motor have got to be so small as to be unmeasurable.

[Perazzimx14]

If you are looking for a sump extender BUB is not the one. The rubber hoses can deteriorate and fail. For me the advantage is that it moved the filter to the exterior. There are other extenders that do this in conjunction of a windage plate.

They also do make finding speed bumps much easier too.

 

[jwinwi]

I would not use a BUB sump even if someone gave me one for free.  But if you decide to buy it replace the hoses and put some kind of screen over the oil pickup.

[Old Jock]

If the extension doesn’t create extra oil capacity, I don’t see the purpose.  Windage losses (power losses caused by the moving crank going below the oil level in the sump) on a Guzzi motor have got to be so small as to be unmeasurable.

Maybe I have it wrong but I thought windage was the crank rotating and causing losses by pumping air in the sump, not if it dips into the oil (which I don't believe it does). This whipping or pumping causes the oil to aeraite and also creates a lot of oil vapour or air-oil mix if you prefer

I found this on the V11 forum. 

The full thread is in the link at the bottom, the thread is actually about installing a MotoSpezial Deep V Sump onto a V11, and the quoted section copied here is by Pete Roper, giving some of the history as to how these things came about. He then after that, goes into why a Roper Plate is a good thing on a BroadSump if you care to read the full thread

"The Moto Spezial deep sump is not a new design. It is at least 20 years old, maybe older, I don't know, but I have pics of a Tony Foale spineframe from about '84-'85 built for the proprietor of Motomecca in London that sports one of these sumps. So if you're willing to accept the design is that old lets look at why it might of been thought of in the first place.

Back then pushrod Guzzis were still being raced fairly seriously in some events, most noticeably by die-hard privateers in Endurance and BOTT, (Battle of the twins.). As early as the early '70's Guzzis were always retiring from races with what were euphemistically described as 'Oiling Problems'. What these consisted of was the oil that was supposed to be in the crankcase being pumped out of the breather system to the outside world. The reason for this is because the crankcase simply wasn't big enough to cope with the pressurisation caused by blow by at high RPM so a lot of oil in droplet form was being expelled with the gas into the breather and condensor system and it wasn't adequate to cope with it so the breather system was overwhelmed and the oil ended up being expelled into the overflow/catch bottle until that either overflowed over the outside of the bike or the engine became so bereft of lubricant that it seized a bearing.

The only ways to prevent this were to either a.) increase the volume of the crankcase so the pumping action was less extreme or b.) move the level of the oil away from the spinning crank so that windage would be less likely to pick oil up and hold it in suspension so the proportion of oil to gas expelled from the case was less and the breather/condensor system wasn't overwhelmed.

Adding a sump extension, (as Guzzi did from the Mk III on.) while NOT increasing the volume of oil in the engine achieved both these ends. As long as an engine, even one with larger displacement to a point, was run with a sump extension in everyday 'Sportsmans-like' riding the problem is cured. At the same time Guzzi swapped from the original inadequate breather/condensor box to using the larger volume of the frame spine as a condensor. This also helped. Later models also had the oil condensate return routed to the rocker covers rather than the head and then, on the spineframes the decision was made that the condensor volume of the frame was adequate to cope with a return to direct oil return to the sump. I personally think was unwise but we won't go there now.

OK, so that dealt with the problems of the *Exterior Lubrication* and for road use this sytem was, and remains, fine on Tonti frame models. Racing was a different matter.......

The Tonti frame is a wonderful piece of architechture, but it is a rotten frame for *racing*. it's steering geometry is such that it is slow to turn, it's rake angle is high making it very stable but it's a bear to push into a corner. Short of serious frame modification, (Nobody had thought of adjustable stering head bearings back then.) the only real way to quicken up the steering was to drop the forks through the yokes about a mile and fit a sodding great steering damper for the straights ( e've been here on our race bike!). The problem is that if you drop the forks too far the bloody sump rubs on the road when you toss it into a bend! To cut a long story short if you build a 'V' shaped sump this problem goes away. Make the sump extra deep in the middle to compensate, (look at the bottom of the fairing on a Moto GP bike, you can go pretty deep on a race track!) and you can keep the extra volume for the case and keep the oil further away from the crank. Brilliant! The extra surface area alo helped with cooling, something that may well be neccessary on an air cooled bike being thrashed mercilessly to within an inch of it's life in hot conditions.

Then there were two MAJOR changes in the Guzzi range. Firstly there was the adoption of Tony Foale's spineframe design. This in itself was not a *major* issue as the rake and trail figures remained remarkably similar. It was still, even by the standards of the day, antedeluvian. The second, far more critical for this story, arrival was the coming of Toddero's Hi-Cam engine. These engines have two major *faults*. 1.) they carry their weight a fair bit higher and 2.) they run HOT! So bloody hot that their launch was posponed for years while they sorted out an alloy that was affordable enough and had the correct co-efficient of expansion that it didn't crack or seize cams through warpage. Even when finally launched Hi-Cam engines had/have a distessing tendency to crack heads if poorly tuned in hot weather. A situation not helped by the need for ever leaner fueling to meet pollution regs leading to higher head temperatures.

So Guzzi had to do something, not for the *track*, for high speed work the heads get more than adequate cooling. it's the low speed stuff that caused the problems. Answer? Rather than simply buying in the rights for the deep sump, (Just as they didn't simply buy in *standard* RAM clutches for Scuras :huh2: ) they went and designed the 'Broad Sump' (which also gave them the opportunity to make the (UFI ) oil filter *Accessible* via that f@cking manhole we all love to hate) with the neccessary munt in the *spacer* to fit the thermostat, filter and all the plumbing for the cooler. It DID have one other great advantage though. It was shallower, which meant that you could lean the old nail over a good bit further as long as you were on the gas! It still isn't brilliant on a Daytona though as the scraped away sump on the RS in my workshop attests. it's owner rides it hard enough but he hasn't got sticky rubber in it and it still gets scraped. BUT, it had the oil cooler, thermostatically controlled, and at anything much over walking pace it really does help. The thermostat is very important. Not so much to help keep the bike cool in most situations but to keep it hot!

Certainly when the oil gets hot in slow moving city traffic type situations the thermostat opening will allow the oil to return to acceptable temperaures much earlier once the traffic clears and in reall high speed/hot day situations it will help too but to me it's main benefit is to take the cooler OUT of the equation when it isn't needed, most specifically in wet conditions. One of my Guzzis has an oil temperture guage that sits on the handlebars, it's sensor is in the drain plug for the sump. When it rains the oil temperature will drop from 120*C to 30*C in less than three minutes in 30*C ambient. In those conditions you DON'T need a cooler in the equation."


https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/9367-plate-or-sump/

[Roebling3]

I added a Teo Lamers deep sump to the '93 Daytona. It included braided s/s hosing, even on the vent line. Most of all I wanted the outside oil filter.
For me there are seldom things scarier than repeatedly running steel screws in and out of aluminum castings. The female threaded gasket surface begins to pucker. (pls forgive me). The gaskets begin to leak. You go a bit tighter. You get the newer thicker version gskt. But really all you've done is changed your parking habits and now ride with early UK bikes.  R3~

[TOMB]

Don't waste  your time and money  on the  Bub setup.
I had onone on my G5 and lost oil pressure .

I was lucky and didn't loose a engine.

Your money and  efforts are better served by getting a setup from Harpers.
I have a early Outsider setup on my 76 Convert.

"Couldn't be happier"

However, the  Bub does make a great  boat anchor, just my 2 cents but im sure others never had a problem with the Bub  setup.
TOMB

[Chuck in Indiana]

Well, a small boat..