Author Topic: never seen this before in a transmission (Read 2868 times)

amamet · « **on:** April 10, 2020, 04:35:39 PM »

Then again ive never worked on the insides before, anywho, the bearing retainer is bent outward allowing for the bearing travel. The 2 bolts holding the retainer are also really bent. Ill take a photo of those later. So thats where my output shaft travel was coming from. You can see the play in the 2 photos. Oh, and a broken shift fork too...

Cam3512 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 10, 2020, 04:51:19 PM »

Time to part that baby out and sell me the 4LS front end.

Cam

amamet · « **Reply #2 on:** April 10, 2020, 04:55:02 PM »

hahaha, yeah. luckily I love tinkering. I wonder how fast that front end would go If I did. im still convinced I got a good deal. I would never have opened a transmission if I didn't need to. its all about learning

Huzo · « **Reply #3 on:** April 10, 2020, 04:58:10 PM »

Everything i# about “transmission” these days...

LesP · « **Reply #4 on:** April 10, 2020, 05:15:53 PM »

The rear bearing seats on a inner shoulder, sits all but flush and the retainer stops any float.

If the (correct depth) bearing can float axially now or moves in general, perhaps that shift fork tells the story and there was some form of lock up and the helical cut wrenched the shaft forward bending the retainer.

Front end if mint has to be US$1000 ++ ?

Here you go... Keep digging yo might find gold.

Before.

After.

amamet · « **Reply #5 on:** April 10, 2020, 05:24:57 PM »

ok, so that broken piece my have caused the output shaft to lurch forward, getting caught up in the gears, bending the retainer and its 2 bolts, resulting in the freeplay? obviously someone was doing something at some point resulting in the rounded output nut. also the cover has 3 holes but that particular retainer only has 2 holes. any significance there?

Muzz · « **Reply #6 on:** April 10, 2020, 05:29:03 PM »

Be grateful that you can take the end off the gearbox on a bigblock.

The smallblock

you have to work from the front and somehow undo the two 4mm (I think) hex capscrews buried beneath gears that hold the bearing retainer, these said screws being assembled with 5lbs of Loctite. More

On assembly, the gear cluster, selector drum, the selctor shaft and forks and the pre-selector fork all have to go in at the same time.

LesP · « **Reply #7 on:** April 10, 2020, 05:51:00 PM »

Quote from: amamet on April 10, 2020, 05:24:57 PM

ok, so that broken piece my have caused the output shaft to lurch forward, getting caught up in the gears, bending the retainer and its 2 bolts, resulting in the freeplay? obviously someone was doing something at some point resulting in the rounded output nut. also the cover has 3 holes but that particular retainer only has 2 holes. any significance there?

The other retainer inside the main case has the same three holes so the one you have is for the experts to identify.

The only thing with the shaft going forward is the nut on the other end would be close enough to the end of the case.
Hopefully there is not a bulge at the clutch side.

Edit.
I went and looked at my Eldorado bits (I put complete 1983 G5 1000 internals in the Eldorado case, the dirty box in one pic) and both retainers from it are three hole also.. Maybe that 2 hole part is from a 4 speed box. (a guess at best) and maybe that is the cause of the shaft moving (weak retainer) and the fork breaking ?.... or not.

Is there a third hole under the retainer ?

Matt Story · « **Reply #8 on:** April 10, 2020, 06:02:00 PM »

To me, it appears that the output shaft took some blunt force in the forward direction, probably by an over zealous mechanic. Possibly a manual impact wrench which would also explain the rounded nut. Maybe the trans was in some kind of accident. Whatever, the shaft was driven forward, bending the retainer and breaking the shift fork.

Matt Story · « **Reply #9 on:** April 10, 2020, 06:03:57 PM »

LesP,

From your pic, do you find it easier to assemble the gear cluster in the cover and then slip the case over it? I have only done the inverse...

LesP · « **Reply #10 on:** April 10, 2020, 06:20:09 PM »

Quote from: Matt Story on April 10, 2020, 06:03:57 PM

LesP,

From your pic, do you find it easier to assemble the gear cluster in the cover and then slip the case over it? I have only done the inverse...

I assembled it same way as you, I just set it up like that on the bench out of curiosity and ran it through the gears.
After it was all together I used a bore scope to check the gaps at each end for even (dog engagement depth)

Some pics here around #65.

https://imageevent.com/time_warp1959/motorcycle/mgmods?n=0&z=2&c=4&x=0&m=24&w=0&p=0

It was only a rough bench test, but the carrier dogs would flick through (in/stop out with no contact)
Not super scientific but to me at that point, although not shaft supported both ends and the detent missing made little difference (to me) as it was only to see if the engagement was there without full in clash.
In the bike is very smooth, on the road is unknown....... The G5 shift drum was different to the Eldorado.

amamet · « **Reply #11 on:** April 10, 2020, 07:41:02 PM »

I guess there no real way to tell of all this damage was mechanic error or just metal fatigue.

Old Jock · « **Reply #12 on:** April 11, 2020, 06:23:34 AM »

New one on me I've never seen a 2 bolt bearing retainer before but I only know the 5 speed box and they are all 3 AFAIK

I'm missing something obviously, the bearing retainer holds the bearing and stops it walking forward in the case, yet it's bent forward. All that I can think of is the shaft moved, but if the shaft moved forward then it would have to overcome the retaining nut holding it or totally deystroyed the endcase in the process.

So perhaps a long, long time ago in a far off galaxy, the bike ends up with a loose layshaft retaining nut. The box makes a horrible noise and owner takes said bike to "mechanic", mechanic then batters the nut tight with a rattle gun.........jobs a good 'un

As you didn't mention it, I'm assuming (again) that the layshaft threads for the nut are good.

The broken fork is probably a result of whatever allowed the layshaft to move, or after said theory of the loose nut being done up again the fork has been cracked and ready to break.

Just glad your Ok with that sort of damage, I don't think it would have taken much for the whole thing to lock up solid

Was your primary reason for venturing in there a result of loosing a gear due to the broken selector?

John

amamet · « **Reply #13 on:** April 11, 2020, 08:13:30 AM »

Hey John, I just picked the bike up, never rode it, or started it. impulse buy, sight unseen. It was being sold by a kid that just bought it 2 weeks earlier but had to sell it to leave town and go back home because of the virus thing, he lost his job and apt. Anyway, I got in touch with the previous owner who said it had an iron lined big bore kit and he redid the head gaskets with convert gaskets. I know those don't work with the eldorado.
With all the time on my hands I decided to pull the motor and look inside. Sure enough, the pushrod holes in the gasket were all beat up. While the transmission was on the bench I noticed the output shaft pulled in and out a few mm's. Then noticed the beat up bolt on the shaft. Thats what lead me to go inside. Im glad I did. In hindsight, this bike is a great learning tool for me and itll be a sweet ride once its all sorted. That retainer is really confusing, can't seem to find a 2 hole retainer anywhere, just for reference you see. Ill get all the right parts back in there

Antietam Classic Cycle · « **Reply #14 on:** April 11, 2020, 08:47:14 AM »

I have a bin full of 5 spd. "munt". A lot of it is scrap due to rust, but there still some good stuff. Let me know what you need and I'll see what I have of it.

Old Jock · « **Reply #15 on:** April 11, 2020, 08:56:15 AM »

Thanks, tell me about buying bikes sight unseen

Really don't know the Eldo but the 5 speed boxes didn't really change too much over the years.

Antietam Classic Cycle on here knows these machines backwards and just as I'm about to post Chralie comes on the case

So with the nut tight, then I can only think the bearing was moving in the endcase due to the bent retainer, that allowed the layshaft play with the layshaft nut tight

The only thing I can up with as I said is the box has been run for a while with the layshaft nut loose.

That's damaged the retainer and from that point on the layshaft could move and not do anything else inside any good whatsoever, hammering away on everything in there as it moved off load/under load.

The 2 holed retaining cap is strange in itself, but if it came out the factory that way it would not surprise me in the least. IMHO you've probably been really unlucky in that respect as I reckon the third retaining screw might have given the cap sufficient strength to stop it from bending in the first place

Glad the bike is with somebody who mechanically, obviously knows what he's doing.

John

amamet · « **Reply #16 on:** April 11, 2020, 09:14:07 AM »

Ha, thx mike, i am mechanically inclined, but I have no idea what I’m doing sometimes. I do know more than what I knew the day before though.

Rolf Halvorsen · « **Reply #17 on:** April 11, 2020, 09:45:02 AM »

What has happened to your axial play - is that the universal joint sometime has broken down - leading to a force that pressed the output shaft forward.

Next: The 2 screws retainer plate was used on all 4-speed models AND also on the first 5-speed models around 1972.

Rolf

Old Jock · « **Reply #18 on:** April 11, 2020, 10:32:44 AM »

Quote from: Rolf Halvorsen on April 11, 2020, 09:45:02 AM

What has happened to your axial play - is that the universal joint sometime has broken down - leading to a force that pressed the output shaft forward.

Next: The 2 screws retainer plate was used on all 4-speed models AND also on the first 5-speed models around 1972.

Rolf

Makes a lot of sense Rolf

amamet · « **Reply #19 on:** April 11, 2020, 03:44:34 PM »

Now that I think about it, and what Rolf said, I wonder if my bent frame was the result of some rear end trauma. The rear of the frame is bent to the right. Maybe that impact causes the drivetrain to slam forward resulting in the broken fork and bent retainer. The back side of the shift forks show significant wear. Obviously the last owner rode for awhile like this. Since the lay shaft had about 2mm forward movement that could also be the cause of the wear on the shift fork. Just doing some detective work. Has to be fixed either way and it doesn’t really matter how it happened I guess

moto-uno · « **Reply #20 on:** April 11, 2020, 05:04:15 PM »

^ If you don't want it to happen again ,,,,, I'd keep testing every possible theory ! Peter
( I know the second times easier , but it still would suck

)

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Author Topic: never seen this before in a transmission (Read 2868 times)

LesP

LesP

LesP