Ducati Being Penalized by Moto America?

[LowRyter]

If you're a race fan you might be aware that PJ Jacobsen won the 1000 Super Stock Race at Road America on a V4 Panigale.  I got a call from the team manager from Celtic Racing advising that Moto America, the sanctioning body, was considering a 22 LB weight penalty and perhaps a 1500 rpm penalty as well.

This seems extreme since Ducati hasn't won an American race in memory.  PJ is a great rider that races Flat Track and has been in World Superbike as well MA.

If you're a Ducati fan you might let MA know how you feel about it.

[Perazzimx14]

The older I get the less I tolerate professional or any sport where money is involved.

[nc43bsa]

Didn't a Ducati win the Daytona 200 a few years ago?

[LowRyter]

Didn't a Ducati win the Daytona 200 a few years ago?

9 years ago

[nc43bsa]

9 years ago

 

I knew it was after the last time I raced at Daytona, which was 2009.

[bodine99]

Yah-ma-hama probably pissing & moaning. Great job PJ!!!

[LowRyter]

I guess it's too late

https://www.roadracingworld.com/news/motoamerica-raises-minimum-weight-of-ducati-v4-r-in-stock-1000/

[RinkRat II]

   Not much new or unexpected, NHRA has been doing that to Harley for years and they still win. I think the engineers look at it as a challenge and overcome it with a big grin on their faces.

      Paul B

[Turin]

My 2 cents.  I don't know how you justify neutering a bikes RPM and penalizing them with extra weight makes for better racing. If Ducati or Yamaha or whomever make a faster homologation special that follows the rules, then they deserve to win.
The rules a pretty straightforward and I disagree with the one that lets motoamerica arbitrarily decide what makes the series more competitive.

I miss the original formula extreme.

[bodine99]

   Not much new or unexpected, NHRA has been doing that to Harley for years and they still win. I think the engineers look at it as a challenge and overcome it with a big grin on their faces.

      Paul B

You mean like the ultra rare pushrod V-Rod engine!!!

[oldbike54]

You mean like the ultra rare pushrod V-Rod engine!!!

 The 3,000 CC version , or the 160 CID version . Neither one of which were ever in a V-Rod 

 Dusty

[LowRyter]

   Not much new or unexpected, NHRA has been doing that to Harley for years and they still win. I think the engineers look at it as a challenge and overcome it with a big grin on their faces.

      Paul B

the engineers?  who are these guys?

I'm talking a racing team in the middle of Okla.  I think there three or 4 on the team plus the riders, parents and wives working PR.  They have a couple of other bikes in lower classes including a Yamaha or two.   

Bobby runs HSBK, sells sportsbike parts online from his shop and runs a 3 or 4 racing bikes on Celtic Racing, including PJ's.
https://hsbkracingteam.com/team/

[LowRyter]

https://hsbkracingteam.com/racing-news/celtic-hsbk-racings-official-response-to-minimum-weight-of-ducati-v4r-in-stock-1000/


Celtic HSBK Racing’s Official Response to Minimum Weight of Ducati V4R in Stock 1000

Mladin won the AMA title 7 times with more wins and poles than any other rider in the history of the series.
Carmichael once won all 48 motos in a season.
McGrath won 7 out of 8 years in the Supercross Championship.

Every sport has had a Mladin, a Carmichael, an athlete that was better and when he got on a better piece of equipment that suited his strengths, he truly shined. Penalizing greatness is contrary to why we show up to race in any motorsport championship. To penalize an athlete, to penalize a brand, to penalize a design for having made an impeccable product is beyond comprehension. With Road America’s long straights, sweeping corners, 4 miles of track and an uphill finish the Ducati is at its best.

At the start of every race season both team principals of Celtic HSBK Racing sit down with their attorney’s and analyze the rule book, the classes, the riders competing and build a business model to give their sponsors the biggest bang for their buck possible. We are 100% funded through our sponsors. We do not receive any funding from manufacturers and work extremely hard to get sponsor buy-in for the packages and team we build.

Based on the rule book we decided that PJ Jacobsen on a Ducati in the Superbike Cup would be the best way for our team to provide value to our sponsors. Both rider and machine are well suited to the Stock 1000 class and would get additional media coverage in the Superbike races. PJ Jacobsen meets all rider criteria for the class and despite grumblings otherwise, we did not have to appeal to MotoAmerica to grant him entrance. As many of our fans know, last year he had a successful 600 season and we knew he was ready to make a step up. He had attempted to race a 1000 in a previous season, but unfortunately it wasn’t yet his time to shine in that class.

Our ultimate goal is for PJ to follow the path Jake Gagne, Josh Herrin, and Mathew Scholtz have taken in MotoAmerica and graduate from Stock 1000 to Superbike. In 2015 when MotoAmerica took over from DMG and introduced the Stock 1000 class, HSBK Racing fielded the Aprilia RSV4 with a plan to do much the same. The team had numerous second place finishes crossing the line nearly 25 seconds after first place. There was no balancing of the bikes to close the gap.

We acknowledge that MotoAmerica has the prerogative to balance the bikes. We do however ask that they define the exact issue they hope to solve with these 22 pounds and future measures. We have already seen the goal post move once.  If we spend a month testing the safety of adding copious amounts of weight to a compact machine, we cannot afford to have the goal posts move again. Adding nearly 20% of the riders weight to a meticulously engineered bike is one thing, but when will it stop if he continues to shine in the Stock 1000 class?

Our understanding is that this type of decision is typically based on engineering algorithms and data from multiple tracks. We have not seen this information yet. We have not seen or heard what 22 pounds will do to the bike definitively. Not at a big power track and certainly not at a tight track where handling will likely be greatly impacted. We have not heard an engineer say that these changes will accomplish x, y, z to level the field and that it will not compromise the safety of the rider. Without that are we just addressing the best bike out of the crate with the best rider?

We are not in this sport to promote mediocrity. It is our understanding that this series lives on to promote excellence in American RoadRacing. We have seen a shift of manufacturers stepping out of the sport. If we want more factory support in our paddock, we can’t disincentivize manufacturers from building the stock bikes that customers want. If we want them to promote their brand through our sporting body, we can’t penalize their machinery that follows the rules. We can’t penalize them when the right privateer and the right rider come together.

The team will be filing an official appeal to this decision.

[RinkRat II]

     

the engineers?  who are these guys?

   Call'em what you want, technicians, engineers, team manager etc. they all have an abundance of knowledge and the ability to squeeze a little bit more from their bike  and riders. Obviously  PJ is a great fit for the team and a very talented rider.  Unless the engines are sealed and NO modifications allowed it would be pretty naive to think the team is not pushing the limit to get an advantage. I'm not blaming or defending anyone in this scenario but racing is an interpretation of the rules, and when they change the rules your only recourse is to overcome the change and beat them at it.  Unfortunately it's a buisiness and less of a sport nowadays.

         Paul B

[Sasquatch Jim]

The worst of this kind of making the rule favor one bike over another was way back when the AMA rules said that
bikes with overhead valves were restricted to 500 ccs while bikes with valve in block (flat head valves) could run
 up to 750 ccs.  This was to give Harley Davidson a distinct power advantage over more modern designed engines
of the competition. 

[LowRyter]

         Call'em what you want, technicians, engineers, team manager etc. they all have an abundance of knowledge and the ability to squeeze a little bit more from their bike  and riders. Obviously  PJ is a great fit for the team and a very talented rider.  Unless the engines are sealed and NO modifications allowed it would be pretty naive to think the team is not pushing the limit to get an advantage. I'm not blaming or defending anyone in this scenario but racing is an interpretation of the rules, and when they change the rules your only recourse is to overcome the change and beat them at it.  Unfortunately it's a buisiness and less of a sport nowadays.

         Paul B

Actually the engines have to be OEM and basically unmodified.  I am not sure if they are sealed.  That's why he's in 1000 Class and not a Superbike.

If anyone is a Ducati fan, I've been asked that you write MotoAmerica.  Not a big issue considering the news but a great diversion.

[wirespokes]

Reminds me of a Kurt Vonnegut story set in a future time where the government ensures everyone is equal. Athletes wear weights according to their abilities, scholars wear buzzers and get electric shocks to disrupt their thinking, pretty girls are made ugly - that sort of thing. Of course a young couple remove their weights and practically fly through their dance routine - and meet an ugly end (probably shot...I don't remember how it ends).

[lucky phil]

My 2 cents.  I don't know how you justify neutering a bikes RPM and penalizing them with extra weight makes for better racing. If Ducati or Yamaha or whomever make a faster homologation special that follows the rules, then they deserve to win.
The rules a pretty straightforward and I disagree with the one that lets motoamerica arbitrarily decide what makes the series more competitive.

I miss the original formula extreme.

I agree but it's done under the guise of keeping the costs down and making racing affordable and to some extent technical parity. The Ducati costs a lot more than the Japanese competition so they neuter it. It's the same in WSB. Bautista was the only guy that could win on a Ducati last year so they cut the revs. never mind every other Ducati rider was nowhere.

Ciao 

[pressureangle]

Reminds me of a Kurt Vonnegut story set in a future time where the government ensures everyone is equal. Athletes wear weights according to their abilities, scholars wear buzzers and get electric shocks to disrupt their thinking, pretty girls are made ugly - that sort of thing. Of course a young couple remove their weights and practically fly through their dance routine - and meet an ugly end (probably shot...I don't remember how it ends).

Harrison Bergeron. Well worth a re-read.

[Two Checks]

I love when sanctioning bodies do things under the guise of saving money but to comply teams need to spend more.


And the teams not affected by the rules change? I imagine they will want to make the same changes? Not hardly.

[s1120]

I love when sanctioning bodies do things under the guise of saving money but to comply teams need to spend more.


And the teams not affected by the rules change? I imagine they will want to make the same changes? Not hardly.

Growing up in the world of late 70's-early 80's showroom stock car racing, Ill say that not only are stock classes not saving money...  but there is not one "stock" thing on the track!!!  As for those types of rule changes...  Ya, i can never get behind them. If you want to outlaw a new technology fine.... but not restricting the ones that make the best of the rules..  Always reeks of "the one that writes the biggest payoff check wins"

[wirespokes]

If you're way ahead of the class - best not show off. Make it look like you're struggling to keep up and then only win by a hair.