Bigblock Crank Nut Lockwasher

[ozarquebus]

What is the technique for raising the correct ear on the lock ring under the crank nut when re-installing(G5)?
 Very hard to bend the chosen ear up when nut is installed, but nut cannot be torqued down when ear is engaged since the lock ring has an index tab in the keyway slot on the crank.

[ozarquebus]

Also, like a lot of other guzzi guys, I have just researched crank nut torque and found no definitive spec.
Plus, by dealing with the peg nut lock ring ears, you cannot arrive precisely at that number, whatever it is.
 So I will just pick the ear that is close to 108 lbs.

[guzzisteve]

You got it, you go around that area for torque till it fits, or then back off to fit in slot.

[jacksonracingcomau]

Search may find it but Pete posted a recall notice on 8v engines (2010 ish?)
Factory started using bellville washers on crank, like Japanese engines have for years , with appropriate torque.

I’ve used them (either oe or from fastener supply shop) ever since, concept is perfect, the heavy spring maintains pressure after thrust surface wears.
Also, use a hex nut, again either oe or from favourite shop. I bought a box of hex nuts 10 years before that, thread happens to be same as electrical conduit lock nuts. 25mm x 1mm from memory (32mm hex)
No problem achieving torque and with bellville washer, no chance of loosening.

Works for me, funny thing is, my 1967 loopy used a hex nut on crank, why did they ever go to pipe nut thing anyway?

[Tom H]

Your question on how to bend one up once one tab is lined up. I normally use a small screwdriver, screwdriver with a bent tip or a bent tip pick from a cheap pick set to at least get it started bending. Then depending on the room a larger screwdriver or pliers to fully set it.

Hope this helps,
Tom

[lucky phil]

Search may find it but Pete posted a recall notice on 8v engines (2010 ish?)
Factory started using bellville washers on crank, like Japanese engines have for years , with appropriate torque.

I’ve used them (either oe or from fastener supply shop) ever since, concept is perfect, the heavy spring maintains pressure after thrust surface wears.
Also, use a hex nut, again either oe or from favourite shop. I bought a box of hex nuts 10 years before that, thread happens to be same as electrical conduit lock nuts. 25mm x 1mm from memory (32mm hex)
No problem achieving torque and with bellville washer, no chance of loosening.

Works for me, funny thing is, my 1967 loopy used a hex nut on crank, why did they ever go to pipe nut thing anyway?

I don't understand the concept here although my only Guzzi engine building experience is on V11 and Daytona engines. On both of those engines main bearing thrust face wear has no influence on the crank nut torque. Is something different in this application?

Ciao

[ozarquebus]

Thanks, Tom I'll just do that.
jacksonracing:
Wish I had known about spring washers before I bought the peg socket and impact driver in order to remove peg nut without damaging it. Probably would have just driven peg nut off with a chisel, but the harbor freight impact driver is nice to have, now and the peg socket from MG Cycles works. Hex nut with a Belleville washer looks like a great idea.
 Next time it will be hex nut and a belleville.

Apparently precise cranknut torque on an old bigblock is not too critical. Also my timing marks do not line up perfectly, but if I move one tooth or link in either direction it is way off. Of course it was slightly off ( 2 or three degrees) before I changed timing chain and ran ok. (except for rattling timing chain) New chain has no slack with new tensioner.  Now about the same 3 degrees difference, but slightly different positions of marks. If it doesn't run, then I get learn how to set up valve timing from scratch.

[jacksonracingcomau]

I don't understand the concept here although my only Guzzi engine building experience is on V11 and Daytona engines. On both of those engines main bearing thrust face wear has no influence on the crank nut torque. Is something different in this application?

Ciao

Same engine principle on both as well as loopy, tonti etc, all carcano designed crank/ main bearing/ front gear or sprocket.
Factory took a long time to get it, hex nut came first (on both of yours?) but when they went back to gears on last (and still current 1400) 8v, they found the problem, not the nut coming loose but wear on thrust surfaces (front of front main against back of gear. They recalled for belleville (thanks for spelling oz) and all since have had.it.

Every high mileage BB engine I have taken apart with lock/tab washer correctly in place, the nut is not tight, sometimes finger tight. I believe the belleville washer solves it, has to date
Carcano’s original wasn’t bad, the redesign for timing chain and then alternator bought us this washer/ pipenut game.
Finally fixed in 2010 or so

Thanks, Tom I'll just do that.
jacksonracing:
Wish I had known about spring washers before I bought the peg socket and impact driver in order to remove peg nut without damaging it. Probably would have just driven peg nut off with a chisel, but the harbor freight impact driver is nice to have, now and the peg socket from MG Cycles works. Hex nut with a Belleville washer looks like a great idea.
 Next time it will be hex nut and a belleville.

Apparently precise cranknut torque on an old bigblock is not too critical. Also my timing marks do not line up perfectly, but if I move one tooth or link in either direction it is way off. Of course it was slightly off ( 2 or three degrees) before I changed timing chain and ran ok. (except for rattling timing chain) New chain has no slack with new tensioner.  Now about the same 3 degrees difference, but slightly different positions of marks. If it doesn't run, then I get learn how to set up valve timing from scratch.

Your one being tight to start with calls me out but getting them undone has never been a problem, getting them to stay tight was my issue.

Loose nuts sink ships
A fine ear can hear a shaking front sprocket or gear, terminal is when it flogs out the keyway.

Slightly OT but I went through valve timing on my 67 (helical gears ) the other day. One degree out from my camshaft experts friend’s recommendation (use two dial gauges at tdc) , same one degree from Guzzi book method (exhaust opening angle)
Timing mark on front cover, perfect
Shame the cam on distributor is 2 degrees apart ie rh spark is 2 deg more advanced than lh
But is a long time since I had a distributor and first time I’ve bothered to check, maybe rotor button/cap are the crucial factor? Strobe will tell me when I arc it up
But give me twin points any day

[lucky phil]

Same engine principle on both as well as loopy, tonti etc, all carcano designed crank/ main bearing/ front gear or sprocket.
Factory took a long time to get it, hex nut came first (on both of yours?) but when they went back to gears on last (and still current 1400) 8v, they found the problem, not the nut coming loose but wear on thrust surfaces (front of front main against back of gear. They recalled for belleville (thanks for spelling oz) and all since have had.it.

Ok so all are the same which means that the wear on the thrust faces of the front main have no effect on the crank nut tension. The aft face of the crank gear or crank sprocket whichever you happen to have pulls up against the front face of the crank front main journal. What the original end float happens to be or what it wears to makes no difference to the fact that the crank gear or sprocket is pulled up hard against the front face of the crank journal and that dictates the stretch on the nose of the crank which keeps the crank nut tight. You could have a mm of wear on the front main bearing causing a mm of end float and it would make no difference to the tension on the front gear, sprocket or crank nut.
Not trying to dis you in any way just thought it needed clarifying for the sake of not creating confusion.   

Ciao

[jacksonracingcomau]

Ok so all are the same which means that the wear on the thrust faces of the front main have no effect on the crank nut tension. The aft face of the crank gear or crank sprocket whichever you happen to have pulls up against the front face of the crank front main journal. What the original end float happens to be or what it wears to makes no difference to the fact that the crank gear or sprocket is pulled up hard against the front face of the crank journal and that dictates the stretch on the nose of the crank which keeps the crank nut tight. You could have a mm of wear on the front main bearing causing a mm of end float and it would make no difference to the tension on the front gear, sprocket or crank nut.
Not trying to dis you in any way just thought it needed clarifying for the sake of not creating confusion.   

Ciao

Not feeling dissed, my ability to explain is at fault, you are correct but Guzzi factory recalled later engines to fit belleville washer, it cost them to do this.
Nut stays tight, is easy to achieve torque. I prefer this to tab washer

[mtiberio]

...
Slightly OT but I went through valve timing on my 67 (helical gears ) the other day. ...
Shame the cam on distributor is 2 degrees apart ie rh spark is 2 deg more advanced than lh
...

In my experience, the ramps on the loop distributor cam lobes are a different slope. What this means is if you want to change the number of degree between firing (right to left), you simply need to change your point gap (and then retime). Changing the gap changes where on the cam lobe the points open, but since the slopes differ, it affects one side more than the other. Ride the slope proper and you can dial in both sides using a loop dizzy.

[moto-uno]

  In reference to an earlier remark concerning torquing , where has it been suggested  that you go to a torque and then back off
to align with a locking tab ( washer ) ? Peter

[jacksonracingcomau]

In my experience, the ramps on the loop distributor cam lobes are a different slope. What this means is if you want to change the number of degree between firing (right to left), you simply need to change your point gap (and then retime). Changing the gap changes where on the cam lobe the points open, but since the slopes differ, it affects one side more than the other. Ride the slope proper and you can dial in both sides using a loop dizzy.

Thanks Mike, bit fiddlier than a twin point system, true blueprint would regrind the cam, I knew dwell was different but hadn’t thought of ramp angles.

[Canuck750]

A small flat blade screw driver can be wedged between the sprocket and nut, twist the screwdriver and bend a tab into the available slot on the nut



Torque the nut down, I went for 100 ft lbs

[Chuck in Indiana]

Not feeling dissed, my ability to explain is at fault, you are correct but Guzzi factory recalled later engines to fit belleville washer, it cost them to do this.
Nut stays tight, is easy to achieve torque. I prefer this to tab washer

How about a Belleville spring is cheaper (Guzzi content) to make than a tab washer? It takes a fairly expensive die set to stamp them out, and you can buy a commercial Belleville spring for pennies? 
And.. why do they use this stupid nut?
Simple. As I've said before, they found a barrel full of them left over from WW2 Fiat fighter planes, and have to use them *somewhere..* 

[ozarquebus]

wish I could achieve perfect alignment of timing marks like Canuck 750. How can this be achieved if one tooth either way is too much? Or is close all that counts and the rest is made up wth dizzy and points adjustments?

[Canuck750]

wish I could achieve perfect alignment of timing marks like Canuck 750. How can this be achieved if one tooth either way is too much? Or is close all that counts and the rest is made up wth dizzy and points adjustments?

Its a bit tricky but I get them to sync by placing the cam and crank gears on the shaft ends loose, no chain, align the marks by rotating the gear/shaft, then pull the gears off without moving the shafts. Slide eh toil pump gear over its shaft and note the position of the key, I align the key of the oil pump at 12 o'clock so I know where to roughly set the pump gear into the chain while it is lying flat on a bench.

Then set the cam / crank and pump gears flat on a bench, wind the chain around the gears and bring the cam and crank marks to alignment. Set the pump gear into it approximate position in the bottom loop of the chain with the key facing 12 o'clock.

Then scoop up the gears and chain with two hands and set the lot over the shafts.

Helps if you have made up a tool to squeeze the cam chain tensioner so the chain can slide on clear of the tensioner.

May take a wee bit of wiggling the oil pump gear/shaft a bit to get the oil pump gear to set.

Timing marks of cam and crank must align.

Hope this helps,

Jim

[ozarquebus]

Canuck,
 that is a pretty good explanation that I can understand. I did it exactly as you describe except when the chain/sprocket assy was on the bench, I placed the chain on the assembly and just spun things around till I had alignment instead of getting the pre-alignment off the shafts to get the sub-assembly pre-positioning. Top sprockets had to move a little to mate up with keys on shafts and that is where the mis-alignment occured. Oil pump sprocket was no problem and I did the tensioner as my last step by flexing it and sliding it onto its shaft.
I'll take chain assy off and try again, but that is ok, because its not tight yet and I have the pullers.
Thanks