ABS - essential or not?

[Lannis]

Government mandating and essential are mutually exclusive.   I agree that it is not essential.

The post that says mandated on bikes above 250cc is ludicrous.  The 250cc and below rider is most likely to panic brake.

"Mandates" are not for your safety or protection.   They are for control, every time.   Not control of the motorcycle, either.

I've got one bike with ABS, but have never used it that I know of.   We've got a car with ABS, but I've never had it activate in normal driving.   I've experimented with it in snow, but the car just keeps going .... !

Considering that I can still buy a 100-year-old car or motorcycle and use it for daily travel if I want to, I doubt seriously that I will be plagued with some equipment requirement that I don't want anytime within my lifespan.

Lannis

[egschade]

I don't think ABS is essential but as my reflexes slow a bit I like having it. Good to know that if I overdo the brakes they'll compensate. I've never had the ABS kick on for the front brake but the rear did during a wet road condition, possibly on a painted surface. Don't think I would have lost it with non-ABS but glad not to test that.

I would NOT want them on a dirt bike, tho I read that the newer systems are quite good and on some models, the test riders didn't turn the ABS off while in the dirt.

[mojohand]

I had a discussion with a friend this morning and he said he would NEVER buy a motorcycle without ABS and proclaimed that any non-ABS bike was a “death trap“. His words, not mine.

When I look at the brakes on my Breva 1100 - which does not have the ABS option- I have a hard time thinking that bike is a “death Trap”.

Collective thoughts? I know my old Cali with linked brakes was great in a panic stop but that would not have pulsed either. I think it’s more a case off riding smart and not overriding your or the bike’s capabilities...

Essential to me. YMMV.

I traded my beloved 2009 8V Griso in on a 2012 8V Norge because of the lack of ABS on the Griso. Despite it being my favorite Guzzi, I felt less secure, especially after both my brother and Bob Annandale ("Buzzard Bob" to some) wrecked within two months of each other on Breva 1100s in conditions where ABS woulda saved 'em. Bob had cracked ribs and a totalled bike; Ray had messed up knee, broken wrist, and other things. ATGATT prevented dire injuries, but ABS would been the ticket.

YMMV, but as for me and my house, we'll do ABS (and TC).

[TimmyTheHog]

The ABS tech on motorcycle is getting way way way better than even 5 years ago...and they are ever evolving due to requirement/better study.

as for "essential"...it depends on how a person defines the term.

well, let's put it this way.

Would I buy a motorcycle without ABS? Yes, I would.

If I have no choice but to get a motorcycle WITH ABS, would I still buy it? Yes, I would, but I will do my best to not rely on it AKA rider training & defensive riding.

If I was given a choice to get rid of ABS, would I? No I wouldn't, but I will add a system to switch off when I don't need it AKA dirt.

[LowRyter]

Anyone buying a new bike should get it. Don't skimp for a few bucks.

Nothing wrong with riding older bikes, I have three old ones and only 1 with ABS.  So don't get talked out of it.   Just because ABS is a PIA for the bikes 10 years ago, it's a good deal now.  So don't purchase an old ABS bike but make sure to get it in a newer bike.

[Knuckle Dragger]

None of my bikes have ever had ABS.  None.  In 40 years - I was a late starter into the sometimes dubious delights of two-wheeled conveyance.

Some, in fact most, really didn't need it.  The brakes simply weren't powerful enough, didn't grip or retard at anything like acceptable rates.  Some bikes' brakes were downright dangerous:  a KTM 600 had the most woeful front drum brake that allowed approx 3 seconds of braking before fading all to the way to the handlebar grip in uselessness.  Great for the dirt, but downright dangerous on Macadam, especially on my second set of "dual sport" tired wheels.

Ducati's & BMW boxer brakes, despite being then-current "state of the art" Brembos were likewise, pretty vague & comparitively gutless.  My only bike with redeeming retardation were the linked Brembos on my sole Guzzi Spada.  Even they, in comparison to "modern" bikes weren't, on reflection, really all that good either.

Modern brakes are amazing, however.  My most powerful, & potentially fastest bike (RSV1000R) has Monoblocs.  Instant, extreme braking with just a finger or 2.  This bike SHOULD have ABS, but doesn't.  Powerful brakes on a big, heavy or fast bike really need fine control to protect the rider from themselves.  In emergency braking scenarios it's just too easy to grab a panicked handful when faced with (my latest instant was a bunch [gaggle?] of unexpected geese crossing a wet road) a surprise.

My other bikes are even more extreme.  I have a brace of Husky Nudas which are notoriously over-braked.  The "standard" models is manageable, one of which has ABS.  2013 models were eventually ABS braked.  My first bike ever so equipped.  Brilliant.  Yet another, a 2012 "R" model, doesn't.  It's "upgraded" brakes are simply lethal.  Racing, indeed GP-class Monoblocs on an extremely lightweight naked hotrod!  Road tests of the time all commonly alluded to the waay too powerful, potentially lethal brakes especially the R's Monoblocs.  On a 175 Kg bike that could've been better served with a single disc only!

My solution therefore, is to turn my R model into an ABS model by doing a front-end & Ohlins rear swap.  The only way that I can see my way clear to having a safe, actually rideable Nuda.

Other, presumably better riders than me are critical:  "You should learn how to properly modulate your front braking".  "I've been racing for decades, & I know how to brake safely to just before lockup on a track".  "You don't really need ABS:  it's just for crap riders". 

Maybe all valid points, but I simply don't want to ride on the road, in all conditions, on a dangerously over-braked bike without the safety net of ABS.  Having served a 40 year apprenticeship without, I can clearly see its merits.  In my opinion an over-braked bike is potentially more dangerous than an under-braked one.

My daughters, both now in their 20s & relatively new to biking, are safe drivers & will each be getting non-ABS Nudas when I complete the swap & get all 3 roadworthy for the coming Antipodean Summer.  Can't wait.  Both bikes will be equipped with the less savage & much safer Brembo standard calipers.  Essential, in my opinion, to adequately teach them safe braking practises in all road conditions.  Mine, with utterly manic R-spec Monobloc calipers, will have ABS;  theirs won't.

Sorry for the mini-essay.  My convoluted discussion may be summarised thus:  ABS is an excellent safety system for modern, powerful bikes & braking systems.  Yet it may actually teach inexperienced users some "bad habits";  grabbing a fistful of brakes even in poor low-grip conditions.  Older bikes didn't have sufficiently powerful brakes to actually warrant ABS.  Modern bikes do.  If ever a bike needed ABS as an utterly essential safety inclusion it's the otherwise lethal Monobloc Husky Nuda R, whereas older 80s (maybe even 90s) vintage Guzzies, BMW boxers, Ducatis etc. actually don't.

[Wildroamer]

Essential to me. YMMV.

I traded my beloved 2009 8V Griso in on a 2012 8V Norge because of the lack of ABS on the Griso. Despite it being my favorite Guzzi, I felt less secure, especially after both my brother and Bob Annandale ("Buzzard Bob" to some) wrecked within two months of each other on Breva 1100s in conditions where ABS woulda saved 'em. Bob had cracked ribs and a totalled bike; Ray had messed up knee, broken wrist, and other things. ATGATT prevented dire injuries, but ABS would been the ticket.

YMMV, but as for me and my house, we'll do ABS (and TC).

I'd love be to hear a bit about the circumstances, if you're up for it. As a returning rider on first bike ever with ABS, I'm definitely interested in knowing about the situations it might help, hurt, or make no difference.

[SIR REAL ED]

None of my bikes have ever had ABS.  None.  In 40 years - I was a late starter into the sometimes dubious delights of two-wheeled conveyance.

Some, in fact most, really didn't need it.  The brakes simply weren't powerful enough, didn't grip or retard at anything like acceptable rates.  Some bikes' brakes were downright dangerous:  a KTM 600 had the most woeful front drum brake that allowed approx 3 seconds of braking before fading all to the way to the handlebar grip in uselessness.  Great for the dirt, but downright dangerous on Macadam, especially on my second set of "dual sport" tired wheels.

Ducati's & BMW boxer brakes, despite being then-current "state of the art" Brembos were likewise, pretty vague & comparitively gutless.  My only bike with redeeming retardation were the linked Brembos on my sole Guzzi Spada.  Even they, in comparison to "modern" bikes weren't, on reflection, really all that good either.

Modern brakes are amazing, however.  My most powerful, & potentially fastest bike (RSV1000R) has Monoblocs.  Instant, extreme braking with just a finger or 2.  This bike SHOULD have ABS, but doesn't.  Powerful brakes on a big, heavy or fast bike really need fine control to protect the rider from themselves.  In emergency braking scenarios it's just too easy to grab a panicked handful when faced with (my latest instant was a bunch [gaggle?] of unexpected geese crossing a wet road) a surprise.

My other bikes are even more extreme.  I have a brace of Husky Nudas which are notoriously over-braked.  The "standard" models is manageable, one of which has ABS.  2013 models were eventually ABS braked.  My first bike ever so equipped.  Brilliant.  Yet another, a 2012 "R" model, doesn't.  It's "upgraded" brakes are simply lethal.  Racing, indeed GP-class Monoblocs on an extremely lightweight naked hotrod!  Road tests of the time all commonly alluded to the waay too powerful, potentially lethal brakes especially the R's Monoblocs.  On a 175 Kg bike that could've been better served with a single disc only!

My solution therefore, is to turn my R model into an ABS model by doing a front-end & Ohlins rear swap.  The only way that I can see my way clear to having a safe, actually rideable Nuda.

Other, presumably better riders than me are critical:  "You should learn how to properly modulate your front braking".  "I've been racing for decades, & I know how to brake safely to just before lockup on a track".  "You don't really need ABS:  it's just for crap riders". 

Maybe all valid points, but I simply don't want to ride on the road, in all conditions, on a dangerously over-braked bike without the safety net of ABS.  Having served a 40 year apprenticeship without, I can clearly see its merits.  In my opinion an over-braked bike is potentially more dangerous than an under-braked one.

My daughters, both now in their 20s & relatively new to biking, are safe drivers & will each be getting non-ABS Nudas when I complete the swap & get all 3 roadworthy for the coming Antipodean Summer.  Can't wait.  Both bikes will be equipped with the less savage & much safer Brembo standard calipers.  Essential, in my opinion, to adequately teach them safe braking practises in all road conditions.  Mine, with utterly manic R-spec Monobloc calipers, will have ABS;  theirs won't.

Sorry for the mini-essay.  My convoluted discussion may be summarised thus:  ABS is an excellent safety system for modern, powerful bikes & braking systems.  Yet it may actually teach inexperienced users some "bad habits";  grabbing a fistful of brakes even in poor low-grip conditions.  Older bikes didn't have sufficiently powerful brakes to actually warrant ABS.  Modern bikes do.  If ever a bike needed ABS as an utterly essential safety inclusion it's the otherwise lethal Monobloc Husky Nuda R, whereas older 80s (maybe even 90s) vintage Guzzies, BMW boxers, Ducatis etc. actually don't.

I would like to see some pictures of your Husky Nudas.  Always lusted for one, but never brought into the US.

I agree, old bikes with weak brakes go equipped with ABS as standard equipment.

[Ncdan]

Just out of curiosity, do the super bike class racing bikes utilize ABS systems?

[Knuckle Dragger]

Just out of curiosity, do the super bike class racing bikes utilize ABS systems?

Personally I'm not really sure, but I've always been told that a well-skilled rider (& car driver) can actually stop in shorter distances without.  So I'm doubtful, although the electronic control systems are becoming forever better & therefore presumably more effective.  I think Superbike class racers turn off their ABS.

ABS is most effective with less skilled riders riding in "normal", uncontrolled road conditions on a variety of average road conditions rather than a fast, grippy racetrack with generous corner runoffs.

I'm not a racer, nor have anything but average braking skills.

[Tusayan]

Traction versus loss of traction is very often not a single step function, it can be a very rapid back and forth thing.  Momentary loss of traction under very hard braking on changeable surfaces is an issue with ABS. Without ABS when the tire regains traction after a very short period of lost traction that the rider may not even have felt, braking immediately continues uninterrupted.  With ABS there is a slight delay while the system recognizes what is going on, before braking is reapplied.  If this situation happens repetitively in very hard braking on a changeable traction surface, the short delays add up and braking distance will be unavoidably longer because the response time of the ABS system is competing with zero response time without ABS.  The benefit is less chance of losing control, and ABS response times have much reduced over the years.

[redrider90]

Is there a way you could ask your question, but do so in a more convoluted manner??

I am working on my convoluted question. But first I have to find out are there any Tonti frame Guzzi's that came with abs?

[twowheeladdict]

Anyone buying a new bike should get it. Don't skimp for a few bucks.

Nothing wrong with riding older bikes, I have three old ones and only 1 with ABS.  So don't get talked out of it.   Just because ABS is a PIA for the bikes 10 years ago, it's a good deal now.  So don't purchase an old ABS bike but make sure to get it in a newer bike.

In some cases I've seen it as a $1000 option.  I've also seen the non-ABS bikes get large discounts because people "must have" ABS which makes the non-ABS bikes even more appealing.  I have never gone down because of locking up the brakes, but have stopped perpendicular to the light when coming to a stop on a freshly wet road in Florida.  With ABS I would have probably been in the intersection. 

Reminds me of when I bought my first new car.  I wasn't going to pay $1000 extra for an automatic when I knew how to drive a manual, and sure enough wasn't going to pay another $1000 for Air Conditioning when I could open the windows. 

[Lannis]

In some cases I've seen it as a $1000 option.  I've also seen the non-ABS bikes get large discounts because people "must have" ABS which makes the non-ABS bikes even more appealing.  I have never gone down because of locking up the brakes, but have stopped perpendicular to the light when coming to a stop on a freshly wet road in Florida.  With ABS I would have probably been in the intersection. 

Reminds me of when I bought my first new car.  I wasn't going to pay $1000 extra for an automatic when I knew how to drive a manual, and sure enough wasn't going to pay another $1000 for Air Conditioning when I could open the windows.

Next question after ABS will be "Are the lane-holding and anti-collision sensors essential on a bike/car?".    Me personal, I'll never buy a car with a deal where some sensor will take control of the car away from me.    Cautionary tales are already starting to build up; people get used to them, get lazy, forget whether they or the car has control, transition from lines on the road to no lines, ad infinitum.   Things may go wrong due to my own actions, but it's not going to be a "open the pod bay doors, HAL" scenario ... 

I don't need the ABS, but if things are so bad that IT can't help, I probably couldn't have stopped in time either, at least on the street.

Lannis

[kirby1923]

We encountered this invasive automation problem in the air transport aircraft operations when it started taking more and more of the basic pilot duties from the operation of the aircraft. It resulted in a reduction in piloting skills because more of the critical functions were taken out of the pilots normal scan and ops.

Now aircraft (after take off) can virtually fly to a programed destination , descend and land and stop w/o the pilot touching the controls.

Auto throttles, auto brakes .auto land, etc.

The pilot needs to stay engaged with the operation of the aircraft and not just monitor.

Manual operation skills must be maintained and practiced or you lose them.

[Lannis]

The pilot needs to stay engaged with the operation of the aircraft and not just monitor.

Manual operation skills must be maintained and practiced or you lose them.

Yep.  228 people paid the price for what happens when you just trust the automation and forget you are an aviator on Air France Flight 447 .... and there are quite a few others.

Lannis