THE CENTURIES-OLD SPORT OF KARATE FINALLY GETS ITS DUE AT THE OLYMPICS

[Tom]

New sport for the Summer Olympics as a demonstrator sport.  Kata (forms) and kumite (sparring).  Loads of rules.  Kumite won't be 'Hollywood". 

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/centuries-old-sport-karate-history-olympics-180977941/?utm_source=GetTheElevatordotcom

[Turin]

That would be fun to watch. Nice addition.

I could do without the power walking "race", horse dancing/ dressage, and ant sport that is performed professionally with giant salaries. ( that includes baseball, golf, basketball, soccer )

[JJ]

That would be fun to watch. Nice addition.

I could do without the power walking "race", horse dancing/ dressage, and ant sport that is performed professionally with giant salaries. ( that includes baseball, golf, basketball, soccer )

C'mon now...what about....."CURLING?!"
(Sweep that ice!!)

[cloudbase]

They found weed in my system, so I've been banned from watching the games.

[Tom]

 

[Turin]

C'mon now...what about....."CURLING?!"
(Sweep that ice!!)

JJ, That is the WINTER olympics.  The maker of " Swiffer " products have missed a huge marketing opportunity by not tying into Olympic Curling.

[wavedog]

  It's about time. Eastern martial arts are more olympian than some of the other ridiculous rainbow goat chasing stuff that is being passed off as sport now days. (grumpy harmless old man grumble)
 In my youth living in Hawaii and Japan I studied Aikido, Judo and Karate. I learned that the competition/sparring (kumite) was all about form, discipline, respect and it was not about beating your opponent to a pulp like some western martial arts. I much prefered Aikido. Probably because I am not aggressive.
 The most exciting martial art that I was able to observe in those days were the Kendo matches in Japan. Wow! That was some wild stuff. Modern Fencing is exciting also. Reminds me of two cats fighting.

[Perazzimx14]

Wonder when beer pong and speed texting will become Olympic events? They allow most everything else.

[Pdmartin]

I much prefered Aikido. Probably because I am not aggressive.

Same here. I studied Tomiki Aikido with Merritt Stevens the last two years of his life.  He was a most fascinating person to talk to.

[Guzzistajohn]

I wonder how these Olympians would fare against one of todays mixed martial arts fighters?

[Tom]

Not well considering that the current MMA fighters are pro and train all the time for their profession.  Same thing for boxing.  different mind set when you're Pro.

[Kev m]

Not well considering that the current MMA fighters are pro and train all the time for their profession.  Same thing for boxing.  different mind set when you're Pro.

Yes and no

It depends on who is fighting by whose rules.

That's the thing

It's like motocross vs GP.

They are all bound by a set of rules that limit then severely at what they can and cannot do.

It's the difference between a martial art and a sport.

These are all sport versions of the art or taking some of the way the art is practiced and turning it into a sport.

But generally speaking you are correct that most professional fighters have trained to an insane level of endurance and fitness.

[Guzzistajohn]

Not well considering that the current MMA fighters are pro and train all the time for their profession.  Same thing for boxing.  different mind set when you're Pro.

That's pretty much what I was thinking, I wondered what someone who obviously knows more on the subject than I do would say. If it doesn't have two wheels and a motor or make music I'm not too interested. Never been a sports dude.

[ozarquebus]

Wait, Savate never got its day in the Olympics. Karate would be boring had they not stolen the kicks from French Savate. (no affiliation with the French)

[Kev m]

Wait, Savate never got its day in the Olympics. Karate would be boring had they not stolen the kicks from French Savate. (no affiliation with the French)

Uh no, karate did not evolve in any way FROM savate EDIT ---> guess that's wrong! nor borrow from it.

It (karate) evolved largely from Chinese martial arts including Chinese boxing/ Chinese Te (literally Chinese hands) and Okinawa te later becoming nationalized by Japan and they changed the character from Chinese to Open/Empty-Hand or literally "Karate".

But I can assure you the major Japanese styles all had kicks long before Savate and a different emphasis on their use that remains true today.

One problem in the US is many people think of Taekwondo when the term Karate is used but that's actually kinda sloppy since Taekwondo is it's own Korean martial art and really is it's own thing (related sure, similar roots definitely, but "Korean Karate" is sort of a nickname, it's already got it's own name, that's almost like saying Korean Sushi, that's not accurate) right).

Anyway I mention that because I would say Taekwondo and Savate have more in common than most styles of Japanese Karate which is what we're going to see these games. Though I think they both evolved independently of one another though it's likely they may have some shared roots.

[Ncdan]

I’m going to only say two words on this thread and subject and I realize I’m going out on a limb at that. 
Gracie family 😉

[Ncdan]

Uh no, karate did not evolve in any way FROM savate nor borrow from it.

It (karate) evolved largely from Chinese martial arts including Chinese te (literally Chinese hands, or Chinese "te") and Okinawa te later becoming nationalized by Japan and changing the character from Chinese to Open/Empty-Hand or literally "Karate".

But I can assure you the major Japanese styles all had kicks long before Savate and a different emphasis on their use that remains true today.

One problem in the US is many people think of Taekwondo when the term Karate is used but that's actually kinda sloppy since Taekwondo is it's own Korean martial art and really is it's own thing (related sure, similar roots definitely, but "Korean Karate" is sort of a nickname, it's already got it's own name).

Anyway I mention that because I would say Taekwondo and Savate have more in common than most styles of Japanese Karate which is what we're going to see these games.

Karate = Empty Hand👍

[Kev m]

I’m going to only say two words on this thread and subject and I realize I’m going out on a limb at that. 
Gracie family 😉

The father's of modern BJJ.

I know a lot of people worship them or MMA  but my point earlier was simple, the rules of engagement define the contest.

Pull someone out of that set of rules and we've got a whole different thing going on

For instance I'm certain McGregor would have killed Mayweather in an MMA match or probably a street fight.

Take away the rules and it's a whole different game.

Anyway for me a 40+ year martial artist who has cross trained in a half a dozen disciplines but focused mostly on JKA Shotokan for the majority of my life, this is gonna be fun to see.

[ozarquebus]

https://www.karatebyjesse.com/karate-savate-kicks/

[Kev m]

https://www.karatebyjesse.com/karate-savate-kicks/

Well there's something to the statement and I stand both surprised and corrected at the history. It is certainly possible that some of karate's kicks and tournament formats were influenced by Savate.

That said though Jesse certainly supports most of his arguments well and has for certain debunked a number of myths over the years, I think he sometimes generalizes too much or tries to make controversial claims for appeal/views.

In this case he overstates the "lack" of kicks in traditional Shotokan karate. The younger Funakoshi "may" have introduced spinning back kicks or round house kicks. And I really see some connections how tournaments COULD have been influenced. But Shotokan already had kicks, including "high kicks" in their kata. Actually the kicks that are seen the most in JKA tournaments were already there, that is too say front and side snaps and thrusts. The kata are also filled with a form of hook and some jumping techniques, but not what is widely used in kickboxing and it's generally not used in tournaments (perhaps for the reasons he stated regarding Bunkai).

FWIW we have always been taught the disconnect between the sport and the art, and why a number of things that we train are not allowed in competition (simple safety concerns).

BTW much of the "high kicks" to which he's referring, that's sorta what I meant when I was pointing out the difference between Taekwondo and JKA karate. At least in the US and what I've seen of international tournaments the spins and hooks are not widely used in JKA karate. The roundhouse has become much more common, and I'll concede that COULD have come from Savate.

Interestingly we were always taught that Gichin's top student and successor, Nakayama (my instructor's, instructor and original head of the JKA) introduced the roundhouse after his travels in China. Nakayama was also the one credited in our oral history of essentially convincing Funakoshi to use tournaments as a method of training and spreading the art, and developing the rules. I guess it is entirely possible that influence did come from Savate.

EDIT - I also think he's stretching when it comes to Kizami Zuki (short punch/jab) being FROM fencing. I mean at some point aren't the same basic concepts going to develop individually for the same reasons. A short fast technique from the lead hand makes "sense" and doesn't have to have its roots in a form of kickboxing that evolved separately half a world away.

Interesting though.

[Tom]

Oh....you mean the tire iron joke or the "gunate" joke. 

[Kev m]

It's a punchline to a very old joke , where two guys are bragging about how they could whip any guy in a bar because they were black belts in some martial arts .

I just figured you posted on the wrong thread.

[Tom]

Not sure Western Auto ever carried "gunate"

You don't know the difference between the sport aspect vs. street fighting? 

[Ncdan]

I’m pretty sure SoCv was simply
making a little joke. I got it👍

[Tom]

I got it too.  However, I wanted to hear from him.  A lot of people think that someone that takes up a martial art is aggressive.  Any martial artist is confident enough that they don't need to bluster. 

Something else that is espoused is that a verbal assertive threat is voiced when a discussion is turns to a martial art.  "I have a gun." or the inference in this case of a tire iron from Western Auto.     What is not considered is that the martial artist can have the use of that "weapon" too.   

[Arctic Fox]

Amazing control of speed & force?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiiznDpoapQ

[Ncdan]

I got it too.  However, I wanted to hear from him.  A lot of people think that someone that takes up a martial art is aggressive.  Any martial artist is confident enough that they don't need to bluster. 

Something else that is espoused is that a verbal assertive threat is voiced when a discussion is turns to a martial art.  "I have a gun." or the inference in this case of a tire iron from Western Auto.     What is not considered is that the martial artist can have the use of that "weapon" too.   

Point made, now back to the original topic of the  “ Olympics“👍

[Gliderjohn]

Around 20 years ago or so the Soaring Society of America made a big push to make glider racing an Olympic sport.  Didn't get too far however. Kind of surprised as gliding is much more popular in Europe and probaly down under.
GliderJohn

[Tom]

Highly unlikely on "Indian leg wrestling" BUT the IOC always includes "demonstrator sports" to see if it will attract more audience participation.  The list shows that savage was tried.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonstration_sport
https://www.topendsports.com/events/demonstration/sports.htm