Sporti stopped cranking.

[bigpants]

Hiya everyone. So stopped for fuel the other day and when I went to leave the engine wouldn't turn over. I bump started the already warm engine and rode straight home. Battery is at 13.4v
When I hit the starter button I can hear a relay click but no solenoid action on the starter , i tried shuffling all the relays by one position and no change. I pulled the feed wire from the solenoid and I get 11.7v there when I hit the button. Should this be battery voltage here or does the relay limit it to 12v ? And also heres the bit that's really confusing me. I can measure that voltage at the solenoid feed wire with the wire off and probe stuck in the end , but if I put the wire back on the post and hit the button whilst taking a reading off the post I get 0v . What's going on there?

[sdcr]

Hiya everyone. So stopped for fuel the other day and when I went to leave the engine wouldn't turn over. I bump started the already warm engine and rode straight home. Battery is at 13.4v
When I hit the starter button I can hear a relay click but no solenoid action on the starter , i tried shuffling all the relays by one position and no change. I pulled the feed wire from the solenoid and I get 11.7v there when I hit the button. Should this be battery voltage here or does the relay limit it to 12v ? And also heres the bit that's really confusing me. I can measure that voltage at the solenoid feed wire with the wire off and probe stuck in the end , but if I put the wire back on the post and hit the button whilst taking a reading off the post I get 0v . What's going on there?

Not absolutely sure that this is the problem your having, but, when I owned a few Sport I models, I did this. I ran extra grounds for the voltage regulator as well as for the tach and the main battery ground. Seemed to help with keeping the electrics functioning.

[berniebee]

And also heres the bit that's really confusing me. I can measure that voltage at the solenoid feed wire with the wire off and probe stuck in the end , but if I put the wire back on the post and hit the button whilst taking a reading off the post I get 0v . What's going on there?

This is probably caused by a poor electrical connection at a junction or at the starter relay contacts. In electrical terms you have a high impedance somewhere in the start circuit. This high impedance allows you to measure a voltage when the solenoid feed wire is disconnected, but once a load (in this case, the substantial current draw from the solenoid.) is connected, the voltage measured at the same point falls to zero. You'll need to do some investigating.

But first, try something easy. Test the starter with a jumper wire. You're going to bypass all the electricals in order to get the starter to crank the engine. Make sure the bike is in neutral, ignition off.  Maybe have someone steady the bike if you don't have a center stand. Jumper from the thick wire at the starter motor OR the battery positive terminal (Which ever is easier.) to the solenoid feed terminal. (If you don't have jumper wires with alligator clips at each end, use a wire about the same gauge as an  extension cord) The engine should crank. If not, the problem has to do with the starter or it's wiring.

Assuming all is good and the bike hasn't fallen on you because of the sudden engine rotation,  then :

Look at Carl Allison's '96 sport wiring diagram here: https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1996_Sport_1100i.gif        I'm assuming the '96 and '97 sport have the same wiring.

The current flow path to the solenoid wire starts at F3. The blue wire from F3 feeds pin 30 of the starter relay (item #33). The output of starter relay is through pin 87, which connects to the brown solenoid feed wire. Visual check: Does the fuse holder or wires going to F3 have brown/melted heat damage? Are the terminals green corroded? Do the same check with the starter relay. All good?

If all appears ok: Press the starter button. You should have about 12 volts on both sides of F3. Yes? Then move to the starter relay. Press the start button. Check for 12V at pin 30 and pin 87. One of these tests will likely give you zero volts. When you find the zero volts point, you've located the problem. My guess is that you will probably find a loose or corroded terminal somewhere in the current flow path for the starter solenoid.

Hope this helps!

[berniebee]

I pulled the feed wire from the solenoid and I get 11.7v there when I hit the button. Should this be battery voltage here or does the relay limit it to 12v ?

The relay doesn't limit voltage, as it's only an electrically activated switch. In normal use you will see a small voltage drop across any relay or switch or even a bullet connector when there is current flow. A typical drop across a switch might be 0.2 volts. You will see higher voltage drops in a high current circuit, less so in a low current circuit.
 
With the feed wire disconnected from the solenoid, there is no current flowing (Except for the tiny and insignificant current that your voltmeter draws.) so you should see very close to battery voltage. Why aren't you seeing battery voltage- or zero? Practically speaking, it's because there is something in the circuit that is making a very poor connection, but is not completely open circuited. A loose or corroded wire connector, for example.

[Old Jock]

Hi bp

There is no voltage limiter AFAIK, the drop in voltage your seeing is through the cable and the relay, but 1.7V seems quite a lot.

When you press the starter button that operates the start relay, which in turn allows power through fuse 3 to the solenoid on the starter.

If you're trying to measure voltage with connector in place on the solenoid coil and hitting the start button, it sounds like the relay is operating.

What your meter will read is the voltage between ground (on the negative lead on the meter) and the solenoid coil (on the positive side of the meter). As the other side of the coil is connected to ground, all you'd see is the voltage difference across the solenoid operating coil, which would probably be millivots, so depending on the  meter range selected you could easily see 0V. My understanding is high or low impedance on the circuit will make no difference you'll still see close to 0V by measuring the voltage difference across the solenoid operating coil

From your description it sounds like the solenoid is getting voltage to it, but I don't know if it's operating or not.

You could try the hitting the starter again and place your hand on the solenoid, you should be able to feel it operating.

If its not it could well be due to the volts drop you're seeing on the solenoid coil.

So I'd try the screwdriver shaft (or anything else that's large and metal) trick.

FOR GOD'S SAKE MAKE SURE IT'S IN NEUTRAL, by physically wheeling it around as well as the "I'm somewhere near neutral" indicator on the dash.

Pull off the feed wire to the solenoid coil exposing the tab.
Carefully place the screwdriver (other metal implements may be used at your discretion) from the large positive feed on the solenoid that's bolted on and goes directly to the battery to the solenoid coil tab (Avoid touching anything else other than these 2 points)

There will be sparks and if the starter operates it'll probably make you jump.

If the starter doesn't operate don't hold on there for more than a couple of seconds.

If it operates then it may just have been a sticky solenoid, put the terminal back then try it using the starter button again.

Let us know how you get on with that as I'm thinking up some more experiments as I'm writing this 

John   

Now I've spent the last 20 minutes writing that berniebee has beat me to it 

[Kiwi_Roy]

Hiya everyone. So stopped for fuel the other day and when I went to leave the engine wouldn't turn over. I bump started the already warm engine and rode straight home. Battery is at 13.4v
When I hit the starter button I can hear a relay click but no solenoid action on the starter , i tried shuffling all the relays by one position and no change. I pulled the feed wire from the solenoid and I get 11.7v there when I hit the button. Should this be battery voltage here or does the relay limit it to 12v ? And also heres the bit that's really confusing me. I can measure that voltage at the solenoid feed wire with the wire off and probe stuck in the end , but if I put the wire back on the post and hit the button whilst taking a reading off the post I get 0v . What's going on there?

You have some resistance in the circuit dropping the Voltage, that's classic Startus Interuptus The solenoid coils will draw ~ 60 Amps so you need really good contacts.
I would start by stripping the ignition switch apart and wiping out the old hard grease and replace with fresh Vaseline

[Murray]

You have a high resistance connection in the solenoid feed wire, on the carbed sport its normally dirty relay contacts. Some power is getting through when not under load to give you a reading (if you also have 11.7 volt across the battery the battery is dead). Under load there is not enough current getting through to run the solenoid.

It may also be worth checking another point say the actual start motor main feed, if that also drops to zero when attempting to crank you likely have a main feed or earth issue, most likely a dirty or corroded connection.

[pressureangle]

If you've pulled the solenoid wire off the starter itself and see less than battery voltage, you have a near complete circuit failure. Even with very poor connections an open circuit will show very close to battery voltage with no load. I'd start with the starter end of that solenoid wire and confirm each terminal attachment point and connection all the way back to the battery. Pull the relay and test the voltage at the relay source wire- it should also be within 1/10th volt of battery voltage. In these cases, a test light is a better diagnostic tool than a multimeter as even the small load from the lamp bulb quickly shows weak connections. You can also use the multimeter in parallel with the lamp to see the voltage drop. I suspect you'll find the culprit very quickly, something like a relay terminal pushing out of the terminal block or fuse block.

[Old Jock]

You have some resistance in the circuit dropping the Voltage, that's classic Startus Interuptus
I would start by stripping the ignition switch apart and wiping out the old hard grease and replace with fresh Vaseline

Hi Roy

Of course you're the expert but I'm not so sure it's startus interuptus.

On the wiring diagram, from the way I read it anyway, there's a direct feed from the battery to fuses 1-3.

Fuse 3 feeds the coil to the solenoid through the starter relay and from BP's descritption, I was taking it that the relay was operating.

The ignition switch does a few things but it looks to me like it's feeding the RUN/STOP which in turn powers ECU via a conection at the coil on the power relay terminal 85

I agree with the others that it appears to be a bad connection or damaged cable somewhere between the feed to fuse 3 and down through the start relay connections to the starter solenoid

John

[bigpants]

OMG !!! Can I just say I love this forum and all who sail in her.
What fantastic answers to my question. So much information and expertise. I can't wait to start afresh on the problem first thing tomorrow morning. There's alot there for me to digest so I'll wait until the coffee is brewing.
Quick bit of extra info though . I ran a lead from battery +ve straight to solenoid input terminal , solenoid instantly fired . I didn't hold it on long enough to actually turn the engine over but I guessed it would if I'd held it there.
Im feeling quite positive about this now (no pun intended).

[Old Jock]

Good stuff BP

It sounds like it's not the starter motor or the solenoid then

You could now try to see if it was just a sticky solenoid.

If you're still not getting the solenoid to chime in then go through the wiring and connectors from both sides of fuse 3 through the start relay and down to the solenoid

Please come back and tell us what you find

Good Luck

John

[bigpants]

Ok,  so today I've put the meter on both sides of F3 and both showed 13.12v
So next I tried the blue wire at the starter solenoid end and got 13.12v
Then the brown solenoid feed wire with the starter button pressed and got 0v
In doing this I have had fuses and relays in and out. Then when testing with a button press the bike fired into life. So I havnt exactly worked out which it was yet but best guess would be dirty relay contacts. I'm going to polish them up now and retest.

[berniebee]

Ok,  so today I've put the meter on both sides of F3 and both showed 13.12v
So next I tried the blue wire at the starter solenoid end and got 13.12v
Then the brown solenoid feed wire with the starter button pressed and got 0v
In doing this I have had fuses and relays in and out. Then when testing with a button press the bike fired into life. So I havnt exactly worked out which it was yet but best guess would be dirty relay contacts. I'm going to polish them up now and retest.

Just so we are on the same page:  The blue wire connects to the starter relay. The starter solenoid is on top of the starter motor.

"Then the brown solenoid feed wire with the starter button pressed and got 0v"
 Did you measure the brown wire voltage at the starter relay or the starter solenoid? If it was at the relay, then yes,  the problem is in the relay or the relay socket contacts. You are very close to a fix!

[Kiwi_Roy]

Berniebee gave you some good tips.
https://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1996_Sport_1100i.gif
is the fusebox (29) full of pointy european style fuses held between a couple of spring clips, I have found that they don't make the greatest of contact.
When I strike those fuse blocks I polish up the fuse ends by rubbing them back and forth on my geans then wipe the spring contacts with Vaseline, make sure all the spade connectors are tight as well, squeeze them with a pair of pliers
An old Guzzi friend told me to stretch an "O" ring around the two spring clips to put some serious pressure on the springy contacts, I always do that now.
Spend a few hours tightening everything up and it will repay you in spades.
Battery terminals need to be shiny and protected with Vaseline as well.
Consider installing a Main fuse at the solenoid terminal where the red wire taps off it will protect the loom if ever you get a short, i get one of those blade type fuses that come with a pair of short wires attached something like a 40 Amp fuse perhaps with a telltail LED to light up if the fuse ever goes suitable ring connector on one wire with the other wire crimped to the red wire with a butt splice.
Good Luck
Whenever you are using crimp connectors on the bike, dip the conductor in vaseline before crimping, that keeps the copper bright promoting a good contact with the lug.

[pressureangle]

Glad you're closing in on it.

I had gremlins in and around my sport that persisted until I removed the fuses and relays to treat the terminals with Craig DeOxit and a bit of silicone grease.
There's a wealth of Sport-i knowledge in the FAQ (failure database) at V11lemans.com.

https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/forum/10-frequently-asked-questions/

[bigpants]

Ah yes bernie I see I made an error in my description. So I tested the blue wire where it went into the starter relay and got a very healthy full battery voltage.
And I tested the brown feed wire for the solenoid at the point where it leaves the relay and got 0v with the button pressed. Now of course the bike starts so I cant repeat the test . I had already swapped relays so I'm guessing it's not the relay , just the contacts.
Thank you all so much for the guidance.