2010 Griso 1200 SE Electrical Gremlins

[MarcoSolo]

Bought a 2010 Griso with 8k on the odometer yesterday without riding it as the tires were way low and the clutch needed to be bled - looks gorgeous, Ferrari Red, hardly a scratch anywhere but it has not been treated well.  Person I bought it from has a debilitating illness which has prevented him from riding for approximately the last four years, perhaps longer, 12 year old tires with like new tread, fluids not been changed in years.  First owner parked it in a damp garage long enough for rust to develop on the valves.  When the person I bought it from had it serviced, he learned about the flat lifter problems and had the roller upgrade done (documented at about 6k miles), along with a valve job, and a Beetle flash.  It runs but stumbles and dies a couple of times before it warms up fully.  I had a 2014 Griso 8v and it was similarly cold blooded but not as bad, but it had the stock rollers and stock ECU mapping. On a short ride on the 2010 to warm the fluids prior to draining them, it ran great. I didn't get on it hard but it pulled like a truck. One other tidbit - the person I bought it from had the clutch go out which required a trailer and a new throw-out bearing and the shop described the gear oil as milky. I drained the engine/trans/final drive a little earlier and all looked clear/normal with only a small amount of filings on the drain plug magnets.

OK, to the electrical problem - turn on the key, the instrument cluster lights up, tach needle does its arc, low fuel light stays on because the fuel level is low, start the engine, the dash goes blank. No turn signals either before or after starting, main headlight bulb is out but the less bright surrounding lights are lit. Tail light and brake light both work.

Does this sound like something you've dealt with and what did you do? I can do the basic maintenance stuff but when it comes to electrical, wisps of smoke start coming out of my ears. I cringe at the idea of bringing it to a dealer with a blank check.

Thanks for any help and feel free to opine on the rest of the bike's shortcomings. I'm only too aware of my own - I wanted it as soon as I saw it, warts and all -what can I say?

[moto]

... OK, to the electrical problem - turn on the key, the instrument cluster lights up, tach needle does its arc, low fuel light stays on because the fuel level is low, start the engine, the dash goes blank. No turn signals either before or after starting, main headlight bulb is out but the less bright surrounding lights are lit. Tail light and brake light both work....

This sounds like it might be a bad dash. But first, does the dash look like this before you start the bike?

https://i.ibb.co/N21Jsk5C/IMG-2441.jpg[/img]


If so, good. If the panel on the right is already blank, that's bad. The dash is run by a printed circuit board/computer inside it. The turn signals come directly from that PCB, so the fact that they are not working is a bad sign. These dashes frequently went bad in early years because the PCB was not coated. Once they have gone bad, the repair is expensive. Hundreds of dollars. Maybe someone else has had experience that indicates a loose wire somewhere, but I don't think that's it. Maybe someone else can think of another diagnostic question to ask you, apart from the failure of the turn signals.

[guzzisteve]

Pull the dash connector on the back & clean it with contact cleaner or DeOxit is what I use. Make sure battery grounds are cleen & ECU ground up front under ECU.

[MarcoSolo]

This sounds like it might be a bad dash. But first, does the dash look like this before you start the bike?

https://i.ibb.co/N21Jsk5C/IMG-2441.jpg[/img]


If so, good. If the panel on the right is already blank, that's bad. The dash is run by a printed circuit board/computer inside it. The turn signals come directly from that PCB, so the fact that they are not working is a bad sign. These dashes frequently went bad in early years because the PCB was not coated. Once they have gone bad, the repair is expensive. Hundreds of dollars. Maybe someone else has had experience that indicates a loose wire somewhere, but I don't think that's it. Maybe someone else can think of another diagnostic question to ask you, apart from the failure of the turn signals.

The image doesn't come up for me.  When the ignition key is turned on before starting and the dash illuminates, the dash looks just like the one I had on my 2014 Griso - when it illuminates - it's intermittent, sometimes it comes up when the key is turned on; sometimes it remains blank.  When I started it up at the seller's house, the dash stayed lit - which is puzzling as it keeps going blank when I start the engine. The battery was still hooked to a trickle charger when I started it at the seller's house - I'm going to try that later this morning and see if it has any effect on the dash. The battery is marginal according to the charger. In no case has the main headlight bulb come on and no turn signal activation.

I will do as GuzziSteve suggests and report back.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[Vagrant]

Do the cleaning to every relay and fuse at the same time.

[MarcoSolo]

@moto - I was able to get your image to come up by taking off the [IMG] suffix.  Yes, it looks similar only more clear and brighter - when it's on . . .  might just be the image.  The seller was able to show me the battery output (12v even) on the dash screen.

OK, going out to the shop to look and clean.

[guzzisteve]

Do the cleaning to every relay and fuse at the same time.

Yea Man, get them all

[MarcoSolo]

Yea Man, get them all

I have to confess ignorance.  I found two 30A fuses under the seat next to the tank and in a fuse block close to the seat tail, one 3A and I think five 15A.  All fuses were intact with shiny legs and zero corrosion.  When I pulled one of the 30A fuses, the dash cycled and the triangle with the exclamation point began flashing when I reinserted the fuse.  In looking it up, it's a service/error code message, which supposedly I can scroll through on the display to get the error code. It has not flashed previously so it probably has to do with just removing the fuse and breaking the connection(?).  I've got the manual out to see how to scroll just now.  One new thing - when I tried to use the handlebar switches to scroll through the menu to get the error code I hit the turn signal lever and the turn signals worked, but still no headlamp.  As I said, gremlins inside screwing with me.

The battery connections are pristine.

Steve, on checking the connections to the instrument cluster/dash, do I disassemble the cluster?  On checking "relays" - do I need to strip all of the bodywork, tank, etc., to get access to all of the wiring?

I'm waiting on oil/gear lube to arrive so not able to start the engine until tomorrow or Thursday.

Thanks again for the comments.

[MarcoSolo]

Got into the menu but needed a service code - looked on line just now and found 12425 for all Grisos. I'll try that. In fumbling for the button to enter and scroll through the menu, I hit the "trigger" for the high beam flasher and the headlight came on, so it's not the bulb - per the manual, the trigger bypasses the headlight high/low setting switch.  I'll just tape the trigger down and ride it like that - just kidding, but I could if I had to. When the headlight came on, I could hear the gremlins giggling.

I checked the manual for the location of all of the fuses and their purposes. I had found them all but I was supposed to have checked the 3A and 15A fuses first before the 30A, but no explanation as to why.

Service code worked.

No ECU errors.

Dash errors 1, 7, and 8.  7 and 8 are related to oil pressure sensors, which from what I've read is not an uncommon problem for Grisos but the engine oil was drained yesterday and obviously the engine has not been started since.

Any diagnostic value in these for the electrical problem?

For anyone else who comes across this problem, an annoyingly jumbled, sometimes indecipherable, but still informative video on disassembly and connections of the dash module inside the housing.  Most telling, the poster was not able to save his dash module with 180,000 kilometers but found a low kilometer replacement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTf7BpwnS-g&t=11s

For anyone else who comes across this problem, disassembling the dash is a royal PITA.  If I did it the way it's supposed to be done, you loosen the dash by taking out the four obvious large hex head screws, two on the top just forward of the triple clamp and two underneath the nosecone screwed in horizontally towards each other.  Then take off the chrome nosecone with the four tiny hex screws on the top corners of the dash, then the three less obvious screws underneath.  Lift the dash and wiggle it and the nosecone will slide grudgingly out from under, leaving the connecting cables exposed.  Hang on the the two rubber grommets because if they're like mine, they're loose in their recesses and will fall out and roll.  It's fun, not, reversing the process because you have to try to balance the grommets in the recess and not have them fall out, then put the dash and the nosecone together and orient them so you can get the two large hex heads back in.  The real fun starts when you've finished putting in the four small hex head screws on the top and have to screw in the three underneath with a little wire hex wrench and no room to turn them so between a third to a sixth of a rotation each time you manage to get the little wrench in the little head.

That said, mine appeared to be immaculate inside - no evidence of water intrusion, just a few tiny spider skeletons. The contacts in the large connector were pristine, as were the two contacts in what I think is the power source for the dash.  Maybe the board is bad from absorption of humidity but I saw nothing I thought looked like damage.  Compliments to Moto Guzzi on the design of the large connector.  I don't have much experience but I thought it looked elegant.

[MarcoSolo]

Back out to take off the left side handlebar controls and look inside, as well as testing the fuses for continuity with a multimeter instead of just eyeballing them.

Decided not to take off the left side handlebar controls. Hot in the pole building. All of the fuses tested good.

[moto]

Three visible things that are driven by the dash are the tach needle, the turn signals and the LED display. If one or more of those continues to work while you're having the problem, then there is power to the dash as I recall.  If only one or two of those items are failing when the problem occurs, you have a problem inside the dash, I believe.

I had one of these problems occur 10 years ago. The LCD dash went out briefly. There was one recommended cure that I tried that worked for a while at least. That is to disconnect the battery and leave it that way overnight. There might be another magic step that I forget. Anyway, that worked.

But I thought that my temporary failure on the LCD was a sign of more problems to come, so I went on a big research binge and wound up coating the dash's PCB, with no problems since. That wasn't easy. I have details around somewhere.

Cleaning conductors and relays is always an important first step. You might look at the circuit diagram to see which of these cannot be the problem, but the diagram is hard to interpret in parts.

[MarcoSolo]

Three visible things that are driven by the dash are the tach needle, the turn signals and the LED display. If one or more of those continues to work while you're having the problem, then there is power to the dash as I recall.  If only one or two of those items are failing when the problem occurs, you have a problem inside the dash, I believe.

I had one of these problems occur 10 years ago. The LCD dash went out briefly. There was one recommended cure that I tried that worked for a while at least. That is to disconnect the battery and leave it that way overnight. There might be another magic step that I forget. Anyway, that worked.

But I thought that my temporary failure on the LCD was a sign of more problems to come, so I went on a big research binge and wound up coating the dash's PCB, with no problems since. That wasn't easy. I have details around somewhere.

Cleaning conductors and relays is always an important first step. You might look at the circuit diagram to see which of these cannot be the problem, but the diagram is hard to interpret in parts.

Thanks.  When the key is on and the engine is not started, the dash is normal - the tach needle sweeps up and back, kickstand down light is on, amber screen has the usual data, I'm now able to scroll though the menus, and last time the turn signals worked!, still no headlight unless I pull the high beam flashing trigger. I wonder whether the turn signal switch was not used for so long that just moving it back and forth restored the electrical contact surfaces. On the dash, the problem so far has been that when the motor is started, the dash goes blank. That's got to be indicative of the problem but I don't know what it's pointing at.

On starting the motor, I drained all of the fluids yesterday and will replace them when my order arrives and will try again to see whether the dash will stay on. I'll try disconnecting the battery overnight to see whether that has any effect and I may replace it as it's older and been on a trickle charger intermittently, per the seller.  I've checked all of the fuses and the obvious electrical connections, and so far they have all looked to be in like-new condition.  I'm happy to rule anything out as the cause. 

When you say "cleaning" are you spraying them with contact cleaner or scrubbing them with some kind of abrasive?  The ones I've looked at were bright metal with no corrosion or crud and many are all but impossibly small to get at.

Thanks again - learning as I'm going and not going to let up.

[moto]

...
When you say "cleaning" are you spraying them with contact cleaner or scrubbing them with some kind of abrasive?  The ones I've looked at were bright metal with no corrosion or crud and many are all but impossibly small to get at....

ThoughI said cleaning is always a good first step in actuality my Griso's connectors are always clean when I look at them. If they weren't, I would use contact cleaner and some abrasives to make them clean and shiny.

I routinely coat contact surfaces with Vaseline, petroleum jelly. I avoid dielectric grease here because it is, well, dielectric. Endless disputation arises around this choice.

Sometimes I use Deoxit if I think the environment is dire. This is recommended by an aircraft builder on this board that I trust. But it is expensive so I try to be judicious with it, being a Guzzi owner. It claims to progressively destroy corrosion, once applied, and I believe it.

[moto]

Thanks.  When the key is on and the engine is not started, the dash is normal - the tach needle sweeps up and back, kickstand down light is on, amber screen has the usual data, I'm now able to scroll though the menus, and last time the turn signals worked!, still no headlight unless I pull the high beam flashing trigger. I wonder whether the turn signal switch was not used for so long that just moving it back and forth restored the electrical contact surfaces. On the dash, the problem so far has been that when the motor is started, the dash goes blank. That's got to be indicative of the problem but I don't know what it's pointing at.

Maybe a ground that the dash uses stops being a ground when the engine starts. The only thing that I can think of that might have that effect, when the circuits are messed up at least, would be the relay that activates the headlight when the engine has started. It's a pretty unlikely culprit, but maybe it is having an unusual effect because something else has gone wrong.

I wonder if that cutoff relay circuit goes through the dash.

[MarcoSolo]

Don't know what I did but the gremlins gave me a break.  Replaced the engine oil, turned on the key and everything worked: headlight, dash, and the turn signals worked.  Cranked it up and everything stayed on - headlight and dash - but the oil pressure light stayed on too long so I shut it down and checked with the AI oracle. I understand there can be something like a vapor lock in the oil pump/filter and the first step is to burp the oil filter.  I filled the filter almost to the top before I screwed it in so there wouldn't be a lag in filling.  I put in exactly 3.75l.  I did check to make sure the old gasket wasn't stuck in the filter recess and double checked the old filter to make sure it was still attached. I need to get a new oil pan so I can reuse whatever runs out when I burp the filter so tomorrow's chore.  If that doesn't work, I need to find the oil pressure sensor connector as I understand that can be knocked loose.

In the meantime, I went chasing a leak in my 2008 CalVin's final drive.  Since the last thing I'd done before it began leaking was take the rear wheel off to have a flat fixed, I thought I might have goofed in reinstalling it so I pulled the real wheel and was happy to see the interface between the hub/spline and the wheel was clean and dry except for the grease I had applied to the spline when I had the rear wheel off the last time. So I cleaned everything, drained about 230ml of the old fluid that was left and replaced it with 250ml of new and buttoned it up. Hopefully, when I got to the shop tomorrow, the area around the two plugs will be dry as well.   

[guzzisteve]

Check the upper pan gasket, the one directly on the block. They are a known issue that blows a section out for low pressure. It will be black gasket & replace with a green one.

[MarcoSolo]

Check the upper pan gasket, the one directly on the block. They are a known issue that blows a section out for low pressure. It will be black gasket & replace with a green one.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll definitely check and replace the gasket if it is black, but there was no oil light on when it ran with the old oil.  I change the oil and now the oil light won't go out because the gasket failed with a minute or so run time?  Wouldn't there be an obvious leak with a blown gasket?

I read about "burping" the oil filter to un-vapor lock the oil pump - do you know anything about that?

[moto]

The oil pressure sensor is located right between the two cylinders on top of the crankcase. It is hard to reach. False oil pressure errors can result from the iffy connector design on the top of the sensor.

[guzzisteve]

On the gasket the oil leaks on the inside not on outside. More likely the sender. I use an old Tonti type and make a wire pigtail, there is also a BMW part.

[MarcoSolo]

The oil pressure sensor is located right between the two cylinders on top of the crankcase. It is hard to reach. False oil pressure errors can result from the iffy connector design on the top of the sensor.

Yes, I got that from the AI Oracle as well, said it's easy to accidentally detach the wire while working around the engine.  I'm starting to have my doubts about some of the quirks of Guzzi design.  I've had bikes of all makes from vintage British to RC51, three KTMs, Ducati, Japanese crotch rockets, and never had these kinds of weird problems.  Fun to ride but a vapor lock in the oil pump and having to unscrew the filter until it leaks enough to get the air out of the oil pump? Still have no idea why everything is working now unless I "cleaned" a contact by taking it apart and putting it back together again.

Anyway, I'm doing some carpentry on an old milk barn and will get back to the bikes this evening.

Thanks again for the guidance.

 @guzzisteve , I just read your post above.  Thanks again.  And yes, the gasket between the sump and the engine block is black. Sigh. 

[Motormike]

I vote for the oil pressure switch as well.  Had one fail on my Griso. Instant oil pressure warning light came on.  Older BMW part will match the obsolete OEM part.

[moto]

I have never heard of having to burp the oil filter. It is important that it is filled before installation, but you did that. AI produces answers that depend upon what it has read by pirating the internet. There is a lot of erroneous info there.

Early in my ownership, after hearing a lot of horror stories, I bought a second OEM oil pressure sensor. It is still on my shelf. I did go in and tighten up the connection somehow. I forget what I did. But I haven't had any trouble since. Good luck.

[MarcoSolo]

I vote for the oil pressure switch as well.  Had one fail on my Griso. Instant oil pressure warning light came on.  Older BMW part will match the obsolete OEM part.

Did you repair yours yourself?  If so, how much did you have to disassemble to get to it.  I was just out looking at mine and I don't see any easy way to access the area between the cylinders.  Per the AI Oracle, it's behind the alternator. (?)  I found some videos on replacing the pressure sensor which required removing the tank.  Did you replace the sensor or just upgrade the connector? Can you give me a description of the older BMW part - is it just the connecting wire or is it the sensor with a different attachment method or both?

Just saw your post, Moto, when I went to post this.  Thanks.  Just need to figure out how to get at it.

[Motormike]

Got to remove the fuel tank. Easier if there is not much gas in it, obviously. The only fiddly part of that is the fuel line "quick" disconnect.  Lots of Youtube videos showing the best way.  Just be sure and pull the fuel pump relay and then crank the engine over.  This will bleed the fuel pressure off the line, making the connection a little easier to remove.  The sending unit is right between the cylinders.  Not hard to get to at all once you lift the fuel tank out of the way.

[Motormike]

Plenty on ebay, but I didn't find a stateside source.  Admittedly I didn't look very hard.

[Bulldog9]

Great post, and glad to see another GRiSO back on the road.

I agree with the advice to clean all connectors. Plenty of options and opinions. I use Deoxit cleaner then a gel type you apply with what looks like a fingernail polish applicator and bottle.

The Oil Pressure Senders are notorious, have had to do one on every bike but the V7ii Stornello. The MGX-21 went bad the first 500 miles.

On the Griso, you'll have to remove the tank and IIRC the airbox. A perfect time to go over the bike slowly, and access/clean all your electrical connectors and grounds, and a deep clean on the motor and TBs.

While apart, even if good, is a good idea to swap out the sump gasket. Again another opportunity to clean things up.

I'd also check the breathers on the backside of the valve covers sometimes the little rubber hoses (lor tubes) dry rot and crack and make a mess.

A few other things:
- Check your main ground and starter connections and see if it has the starter relay. Is a great preventative, and great of peace of mind especially when the battery ages.
- Take time to set up the suspension correctly. The Griso can handle like a pig or ballet dancer based on suspension settings
- DONT touch the stop screw on the bellcrank AKA the sacred screw
- On your dash, cleaning the contacts, grounds and such should square it away. The LCD on the Griso and Stelvio seem to last better than the Breva/Norge, but anything can fail. I installed a DART screen to help keep water out when riding in the rain, and when not riding and parked outdoors, I set my helmet over it to keep sun from baking on the cluster. I occasionally get some fogging inside the cluster, but at 19 years is still going strong. The GRiSO dash is my favorite of any Guzzi