T3 clutch trouble while on trip

[Anomaly]

Bike: 1981 T3 California
Problem: Yesterday, we (my wife and I) rode 200 km north to Livorno to catch the ferry to Corsica (one of my wife's high school friends has a family house there and invites the old gang to reunite each summer for a long weekend). It was HOT (36 C/97 F). Top speed was 116 km/h and when we got to the ferry port the bike sat in the full sun for about 50 minutes before we boarded. At the top of the loading ramp, I tried to shift gears and the clutch wouldn't engage/disengage. Somehow got the bike in neutral and pushed it to where the ferry crew strapped it down. The crossing to Bastia was 4 hours and we departed with the clutch seeming to work fine. We had another 45 km to ride south to our friend's house and about midway there I noticed that the clutch lever was loose/flopping about. It was still connected, but noticeably loose. I took out most (not all) of the slack using the adjuster wheel on the lever end of the cable.

So, what is happening here?

1) This morning,  Google search produced several older WildGuzzi threads suggesting frayed cables, but my inspection today did not reveal any fraying at the ends- that I could detect. One older post mentioned stretching due to temperature variations and this definitely seems like it could be applicable here. I mean, why did the clutch return to functioning after the 4 hour break on the ferry? But then there is that loose lever....

2) And then we come to an older post by P. Hayes concerning the role of wear of the throw out bearing in cable slack issues. Apparently , if the throwout bearing is no longer flush with the case, bad juju is headed your way. It's not easy (at least for me) to see the throwout bearing in situ, but I'm attaching the best photos I could come up with. I'm not certain I'm seeing the lip of the case or not, but I THINK I'm seeing a somewhat recessed throwout bearing and now I'm worrying (panicking??). Patrick, if you see this message, can you offer your assessment?

Our return ferry is Tuesday morning - 45 km back to the port of Bastia. Once back in Italy in Livorno, I have ordered a new clutch cable from a place not far from Livorno on our route south to home. But home is 200km away and there is that throwout bearing demon perched on my shoulder (conscience).

Advice appreciated!

[guzzisteve]

It is not recessed much, almost flush. What you can do is loosen cable adjuster all the way loose & take play out of cable with the adjuster on the arm.
The lock nut on arm you turn loose then turn the adjuster in 1/4 turn at a time till your slack in cable is close to correct. Tighten lock nut. Now adjust the cable with adjuster on handlebar to correct slack. That will give you the full pull for disengagement.
Hope this helps

[Anomaly]

Many thanks Steve! Yes, I understand that I should be working with the clutch -end adjuster in addition to the lever end adjuster-- I will follow the sequence (order) of adjustment you described.

[guzzisteve]

Often the cable strands break in the adjuster tube next to floorboard on lower RH side & you can't see it

[Anomaly]

Often the cable strands break in the adjuster tube next to floorboard on lower RH side & you can't see it

OK, thanks. But why would it have gotten better after cooling off (relatively speaking):for 4 hours?

To be clear, I have a new cable on order, but will have to journey about 60 miles with the existing cable to pick it up and then install....

[JoeW]

Bike: 1981 T3 California  I took out most (not all) of the slack using the adjuster wheel on the lever end of the cable.

When the bike cooled off, was the cable too tight and you had to readjust? Does your bike have the original clutch in it? Two things come to mind when I read this. One is an oil soaked clutch, or Sure Flex discs that swell when hot, or a combination of both. The second, is a notched clutch hub. I don't know why heat makes a difference but, I have experienced the same symptoms. Cold, clutch works normally, the bike heats up and the clutch won't disengage. Tighten the cable to the limit and when it cools down, the cable is too tight.

[JoeW]

Bike: 1981 T3 California
Problem: Yesterday, we (my wife and I) rode 200 km north to Livorno to catch the ferry to Corsica (one of my wife's high school friends has a family house there and invites the old gang to reunite each summer for a long weekend). It was HOT (36 C/97 F). Top speed was 116 km/h and when we got to the ferry port the bike sat in the full sun for about 50 minutes before we boarded. At the top of the loading ramp, I tried to shift gears and the clutch wouldn't engage/disengage. Somehow got the bike in neutral and pushed it to where the ferry crew strapped it down. The crossing to Bastia was 4 hours and we departed with the clutch seeming to work fine. We had another 45 km to ride south to our friend's house and about midway there I noticed that the clutch lever was loose/flopping about. It was still connected, but noticeably loose. I took out most (not all) of the slack using the adjuster wheel on the lever end of the cable.

So, what is happening here?

1) This morning,  Google search produced several older WildGuzzi threads suggesting frayed cables, but my inspection today did not reveal any fraying at the ends- that I could detect. One older post mentioned stretching due to temperature variations and this definitely seems like it could be applicable here. I mean, why did the clutch return to functioning after the 4 hour break on the ferry? But then there is that loose lever....

2) And then we come to an older post by P. Hayes concerning the role of wear of the throw out bearing in cable slack issues. Apparently , if the throwout bearing is no longer flush with the case, bad juju is headed your way. It's not easy (at least for me) to see the throwout bearing in situ, but I'm attaching the best photos I could come up with. I'm not certain I'm seeing the lip of the case or not, but I THINK I'm seeing a somewhat recessed throwout bearing and now I'm worrying (panicking??). Patrick, if you see this message, can you offer your assessment?

Our return ferry is Tuesday morning - 45 km back to the port of Bastia. Once back in Italy in Livorno, I have ordered a new clutch cable from a place not far from Livorno on our route south to home. But home is 200km away and there is that throwout bearing demon perched on my shoulder (conscience).

Advice appreciated!

[cliffrod]

When the bike cooled off, was the cable too tight and you had to readjust? Does your bike have the original clutch in it? Two things come to mind when I read this. One is an oil soaked clutch, or Sure Flex discs that swell when hot, or a combination of both. The second, is a notched clutch hub. I don't know why heat makes a difference but, I have experienced the same symptoms. Cold, clutch works normally, the bike heats up and the clutch won't disengage. Tighten the cable to the limit and when it cools down, the cable is too tight.

The described behavior also made me think of how my V7 Sport performed with a notched clutch hub.   I was having fits keeping the clutch adjusted for park & creep traffic in Knoxville.  It would either be so loose that the clutch wouldn’t disengage engine properly or so tight that the clutch would slip.

That may not have been my entire issue.  But since replacing & upgrading the notched square splined hub to a v-spline hub (plus matching new clutch components), it has never been a problem.  If that hasn’t been done on your bike, I highly recommend it.

Edit- it only takes one broken strand in a cable to significantly impact how it performs.  This is most easily noticed when using a pair of cables for something like the 4 shoe front brake on a V7 Sport or late Eldorado.  One broken strand will render the cable & corresponding brake plate completely useless compared to the other cable and brake plate.  When it’s a single cable without a partner for comparison and especially th break is hidden by the outer sheath, it’s an easy detail to miss.

[Anomaly]

When the bike cooled off, was the cable too tight and you had to readjust? Does your bike have the original clutch in it?

1) two answers to your first question- initially, I did not change the clutch cable adjusters, just let the bike cool down during a 4 hour ferry crossing. After this pause,the clutch seemed to be working fine with no adjustment from me. But then after resuming riding I noticed a very loose /loppy clutch lever, so I tightened up the adjuster while still leaving some free play. The bike has now been sitting for two days and after reading your question I just checked and, yes, the cable is quite tight, almost no free play (a little but not much at all), the answer to your question is yes, the cable is probably too tight and requires readjusting.

2) The bike is a 1981 model and I bought it from a guy who had major work done on it in the 90s by HMB in Germany- they out in timing gears, Giardini 949 cylinders, but I don't know if they touched the clutch at that time. Or the cable. Unfortunately, the former owner was a bit vague on the full scope of work (he did remember that he spent thousands ..) and/or I didn't ask enough questions (sigh)...

[Anomaly]

Just an update on this saga: Tuesday morning we made the 45 km trip to the ferry terminal in Bastia on Corsica. The clutch cable was sufficiently tight  at the start in the cool morning air, but by the time we arrived at the ferry, the cable was slack and the clutch couldn't be disengaged no matter how much I tried to adjust it at both ends. I was able to get it into neutral and we pushed it onto the ferry. Four hours later, the cable had cooled off enough that I could shift it into first and ride to the nearby secure parking lot (about 10 minutes away). By the time we reached the parking, the cable was slack again and I pushed the bike to where the attendant suggested we leave it.

The replacement cable was at NonSoloMoto an hour south of Livorno. Home was another hour south from there. Not completely sure that a new cable would fix the problem entirely, we rented a car, picked up the replacement cable, and carried on to home where we hitched the trailer up to our car and then drove both cars back to Livorno where we returned the rental car and loaded the Guzzi on the trailer and drive back home (arriving at 5 AM...).

While at NonSoloMoto, I also purchased a throwout bearing. This was an original style bearing from Piaggio, but I sere that Stein Dinse also offers an alternative style. Is there an advantage to one style over another (links provided)?

Attached photos depict the recovery operation in progress at about 2 AM.
https://www.stein-dinse.com/en/item-2-1050314-Clutch+bearing.html

https://www.stein-dinse.com/en/moto-guzzi-clutch-thrust-bearing-oem-small-big-models/item-1-1103015.html

[pehayes]

Not sure why they show a bearing pack with THREE race washers.  Never have seen that.  Originals had only two race washers.  (Note: these race washers have a hardened surface.  Normal washers don't substitute.)  Perhaps the aftermarket roller cage is thinner and they need to restore original thickness?  I have also been provided with a third version that has only ONE race washer and the caged rollers are combined or crimped into another washer.  Don't like those at all.

Your hot and cold symptoms really sound a lot like a warping intermediate plate between the two friction discs.  It can't be cured except by full replacement.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

While at NonSoloMoto, I also purchased a throwout bearing. This was an original style bearing from Piaggio, but I sere that Stein Dinse also offers an alternative style. Is there an advantage to one style over another (links provided)?

Attached photos depict the recovery operation in progress at about 2 AM.
https://www.stein-dinse.com/en/item-2-1050314-Clutch+bearing.html

https://www.stein-dinse.com/en/moto-guzzi-clutch-thrust-bearing-oem-small-big-models/item-1-1103015.html

The extra washer may be included to make up for the extra thick SD-TEC clutch plates. The more rollers the better in my opinion - old originals were 14, the most I've seen lately are 13, like in your link.

[Anomaly]

Thanks Charlie and Patrick. I checked and the throwout bearing I purchased has 13 rollers... Patrick-- I fear you may be correct-- I removed the clutch cable today after getting the bike off the trailer.That took all of about 3 minutes (the cable removal, not the trailer extrication...) and there were no visible signs of compromise on the exposed ends.

So... for those of you who know, can you tell me the complete list of parts I would need for a complete clutch replacement? I ask because a quick check on Stein-Dinse (the easiest source for me) shows a "clutch kit" but then suggests that a pressure plate and springs may be needed as well.

I am definitely a shade tree "mechanic". but I have replaced transmissions and clutches in things like my 1953 Chevy wagon... Speaking of which, I have a trip to the US that is just days away with the purpose of trying to finish installation of an "Oakie bushing" in the torque tube of said wagon. That project/car takes precedence over anything I do on the beloved T3 California (I have owned the wagon since I was 16 and rebuilt the 235 straight six in high school auto shop class).  The T3 clutch replacement job may be above my paygrade/skill set but I would still like to know the complete parts list for such and underdaking.

Thanks again Patrick and Charlie as well as the others who have replied to this thread. I would be completely lost without your replies/suggestions.

[Tom H]

This is from MG Cycle, you should be able to find similar at Stein:

Clutch plate kit (you may not need the deep spline input hub (though likely your is a shallow spline hub and will not work), but I would replace it while your in there):
https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=193&products_id=4766

More while your in there items:

Trans seal kit, you will need an output trans seal as well. It includes push rod seals, you could skip those and go with Charlies O rig seals instead and buy the individual items instead:
https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=5067

Clutch alignment and compression tool. You can use the clutch input hub and a correct thread and length bolt with a few washers instead. DO NOT try assembling the clutch without an alignment tool of either type. You'll likely bend your intermediate plate.:
https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=2618

One last item that I would do while your that deep in. The rear main seal. It can be done without pulling the rear main bearing. Just make sure the gasket for the rear main bearing isn't leaking or your wasting you time on just the seal:
https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=79_334&products_id=1371

EDIT........A U Joint boot. Do not forget to replace that while it's easy to do!!!!!!

Hope this helps. Questions on the items??
Tom

[guzzisteve]

It's similar to a car clutch, just 2 friction plates with metal plate between. If it is the plates making the clutch misbehave then there may be one of them are compromised. Could be a broke spoke if stock. Who knows till you have it apart. If you just put the clutch in then it may need the deeper plunger on back cover of trans for thicker plates. Your pics showed that it was almost flush on the cover.  I'd pull it apart. When you need the next project.

[John A]

To replace the rear main seal you’ll pull the flywheel. If you do, it’s not a big deal , I would clean the cam plug and put sealant over it. JB weld or similar works well, I wouldn’t use silicone. The cam plug has a tendency to seep oil sometimes. There is also a gasket on the breather tube where it bolts to the crankcase you can replace if it looks like it needs it. The only alligator is the intermediate plate which will bend if you don’t use a bolt and compress the springs because the plate will not mate properly into the flywheel. You’ll see when you get it apart.
You may consider replacing the u joint carrier bearing.

[wirespokes]

Does anyone have a guess what could cause these symptoms? Normal operation when cold, slack when hot. Cools back down and it's ok again. Could a warped plate cause this? Springs don't usually loose tension like that, then recover when cooled down.

[pehayes]

Normal operation when cold, slack when hot. Cools back down and it's ok again.

Exact symptom of a warping floater plate.  Once it starts warping its like a snowball going downhill.  Just warps worse and worse.  Ends up like a very shallow angle 'cone' instead of a dead flat plate.  Takes up all the free space.  Continues to rub so it continues to generate more and more heat and thus more and more warpage.  There is no cure other than replacement of the plate.  Some have even gone to the extreme of cutting 'stress relief' slits in a brand new plate to prevent future warpage.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Anomaly]

When you need the next project.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry....

Let's see, we have multiple (small) vineyards, about 100 olive trees, two ancient tractors, a home built cruising dinghy, the aforementioned 53 Chevy with the torque tube problem, the aging Ape car.... I'm sure there's more but, yeah, I need another project....

But, it's such a nice bike, just have to find the time, and the funds, to get started on it I'll start with replacing the clutch cable but even that simple task will have to wait as I'm traveling soon and have to focus on other things (see above) before departing

Thanks to everyone for the comments/advice so far.

[wirespokes]

If you've got the room, start taking it apart when you can spend 20 minutes or a half hour. I know how it goes - projects projects projects. And they all hit at once. How many times have we heard of the guy with two spare cars and all three are down at the same time? LOL

It's not a difficult job and you can probably get by with just a new plate. They're cheap. Then again, if it got that hot that it's warped so badly, there might be a bunch of worn parts inside.

Thanks pehayes - makes total sense.