Breva 1100 strange sounds

[Doppelgaenger]

So lately I've been noticing a strange sound while riding the Breva. I've only noticed it when the bike is properly hot, say hot like I just rode stoplight to stoplight for 10 minutes, and it seems to happen just over 4000 rpm when i roll on the throttle HARD. It doesn't make the noise when I roll on slowly.

The sound could be described as the sound of maybe throwing a handfull of rice into a pan or the sound a few times, or the sound of sand hitting your windscreen in your car or gravel hitting the body as you pull away. It seems to be coming from the left cylinder head, but this is subjective and therefore suspect. It isn't a constant noise, it just comes off and on when doing a full power roll-on from 4k.

Valves were adjusted less than 200 miles ago at MI in seattle and both CARC and gearbox oil were changed less than 100 miles ago.

Any ideas?

[balvenie]

             The engine could be pinging. Heard it called pre-ignition. Have you been using a lower grade of fuel lately? Try looking those expressions up to start with.

[Vasco DG]

Unlikely pre-ignition. More likely detonation. My guess is it's a tuning problem. What's the bike's maintenance history?

Pete

[boatdetective]

Unlikely pre-ignition. More likely detonation. My guess is it's a tuning problem. What's the bike's maintenance history?

Pete

Yup.  Be aware that this is a degenerative condition and can cause severe damage to your piston and cylinder.  This will be at it's worst with the engine laboring during acceleration (for example- in the old days, lumbering Winnebagos trying to climb up mountains in the summertime would blow their big blocks due to detonation).

As noted, fuel grade/condition can be a factor as higher octane retards ignition. However, I would tend to suspect that other factors could be at play. The most common are overly lean fueling and advanced timing. Obstructions in the fuel system can be caused by old ethanol gas that has gone through "phase separation". It only takes a tiny speck to partially block the flow.

Pull the spark plugs and have a look. They should have a brown deposit if everything is normal. If they look sandblasted, this will tell you there's an issue. If there is aluminum debris on them, it's too late. Look down in the hole with a scope or a flexible head flashlight. This will let you look at the surface of the piston crown. It should have a thin black coating of carbon. If it looks like the coating is sand blasted off and the crown is pitted- that is bad.

Do NOT  ride the bike until you dope this out. Detonation can be seriously bad ju-ju

[Doppelgaenger]

Thanks for the replies guys, this is bad, but potentially easier to fix than something that is worn out. I've only noticed it a few times so far so this isn't something that has been going on for a while.

The maintenance history is known to me only with what I've done to it, and I've described it all. The bike just rolled over 15k miles. The fuel tank did get taken off when I took it to Moto International for the valve adjust. At that time I looked at the right side spark plug when it was off and everything looked fine on it. The plugs have about 1000 miles on them. The previous spark plugs had some buildup on them.

I get gas from a station that sees very heavy traffic, it's one of the cheaper stations in town because it's on reservation land and right next to the I-5. They supposedly can get ethanol free fuel, but I always fill up with premium. It's possible I could have made a mistake and put in regular, but I think it's unlikely. I ride the bike almost daily, shouldn't phase separation happen only when the bike has sat for a long period?

I'm experiencing no power loss or abnormal feel from the bike when this happens. Just noise.

I'll pull the plugs and report back with what I see and maybe some pictures.

[Doppelgaenger]

So after more research both here on previous threads, other website and listening to a few videos I can tell that I'm definately hearing pinging.

New gas will be the order of the day from a different gas station.

I also want to investigate the head temperature sensor housing to see if it hasn't been broken. I did drop the bike onto the left side about a week ago and I wonder if it could have cracked. I did neglect to mention this earlier as it didn't come to mind.

[lazlokovacs]

Just a small pinch of salt to go with the alarm bells...

I ran my 1st cali (vintage, very similar engine to yours) for years with it frequently pinging its head off, under the exact conditions you described..

But when I pulled the heads the piston crown looked A-OK.

(There is a thread somewhere on here with pictures and a detailed discussion of my pistons)

With the lean mixtures due to emissions laws, and the reasonably high compression ratios, any inefficiencies in the combustion process get shown up pretty quickly. I'd say check your HT leads, coils, TBs and valve clearances before anything else.

and I guess my main message is, don't worry about it too much, these engines can handle a bit of pinking..

keep the revs up

Your model may vary etc.

ps if it has the same engine temperature sensor as the vintage then you are right to suspect it, they are poorly mounted and can cause problems.

[father guzzi obrian]

My B1100 pinged quite a bit when I first got it. Properly tuning it and using premium gas eliminated the pinging and I lived in the San Fernando Valley and rode the sucker when it was 115 degrees.

[Doppelgaenger]

I am not extremely concerned about the effects of this right now because it does appear to be pinging and that's better than pre-ignition. So this brings me to the topic of either custom maps, or the PCV+Autotune...

Can someone recommend a good fuel map for the bike that is out there? I think Guzzitek has one but I have yet to put effort into researching maps.

Is the PCV/Autotune something that will give me a performance increase/ping removal that is really worth the money it costs? I would be willing to spend the extra money if it's worth it.

[skippy]

I sent my ECU to GuzziTech. They did a great job of remapping the fuel curve. Just tell them what you want or what you have, such as a Mistrel pipe with a K&N filter, and they will give a nice new curve. My bike runs great with no pinging.

Skippy

[Kiwi_Roy]

Try a tank of premium gas, it shouldn't ping on that.
Check your wheel bearings in case it's one of those, just a quick visual.

[Doppelgaenger]

It supposedly has premium in it, must be bad gas.

Here is an excellent video that lets you hear what pinging sounds like without exhaust to get in the way

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGJZ6kKzLus

[Kev m]

OK, I'll ring in.

My Breva 1100 pinged BADLY under load for a few years. I tried multiple solutions, even letting Feracci tune it.

Nothing worked UNTIL I HAD GUZZITECH reflash the ECM.

Then it not only cured the problem, but seemed to both get better mileage and make more power.

Couldn't recommend it more.

[Doppelgaenger]

How much did they charge Kev? and what was their turnaround time?

[Kev m]

Guzzitech is one guy, Todd Eagan. I think the reflash was $500 but it may have come down in cost since. Turn around was a week or two. I had to remove the ECM and send it to him. You're at least on the same coast and arguably you could bring the bike to him and have it done while you wait.

I also combined it with his stainless steel crossover without the cat-con and was happy with that too, though I could then hear a little popping on decel overrun with the slightly less restrictive exhaust.

Still I honestly beat my head against a wall chasing the pinging for a few years till I finally did that.

Jas67 owns it now and I think he's 100% satisfied with the fueling too.

[Doppelgaenger]

Still I honestly beat my head against a wall chasing the pinging for a few years till I finally did that.

I will definately take this as the thing to do if a tank of premium with a shitload of seafoam doesn't get rid of the problem. Plus riding 800 miles never sounded more worthwhile.