cali ev 98 does not start.....help please....

[arveno]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk-QMybatt4


Hi All and welcome back wildguzzi forum.... sure i missed you. ( thanks to Luap for keep the machine running )

I have a problem with a 98 ev i just got.
please watch the video, bike wants to start but it does not.
cleaner sensor to cam and flywheel but nothing.
Question: is the noise from the fuel pump normal ?
Could the Ecu be fried ?


thanks
Marco

[balvenie]

My Cali is the '04 model. Is that the static throttle that you are operating on the L handlebar? Have you tried starting without operating it?

[Wayne Orwig]

The pump noise may be normal. How would I know, I can't hear crap.  ::(
If you have an electric fuel solenoid, listen for it to make a loud CLUNK when you turn on the key. If it isn't opening, or there is crap in the fuel tank strainer, the pump has to work hard and it will make more noise.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Its really trying to start, I think electrically it's probably ok. I can hear the pump still running after it stalls

One thing you could try is remove the fuel return line at the front center of the tank where there is an indent around the steering head  put it in a bottle and check the flow when you turn on the key, it should be a full pipe.

The pump should be quite loud but it will be extra loud if the petcock is not open or the filter is blocked.

Remove the cover off the ECU plug to check the TPS Voltage it should be 400 - 500 millivolts at idle
You measure this between pin 17 and pin 11 or battery negative

Pull the petcock fuse and measure from the load side to chassis, I think the petcock is in the order of 80 to 150 Ohms

Has the bike been sitting for many months?


The Efiman document is a goldmine of information on the early fuel injection systems with P8 ECU and it helps understand the 15M also. I found it with Google at
http://dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf

[Zoom Zoom]

Fuel Filter?

John Henry

[arveno]

thank you all for the advice/help
Yes bike was parked last year and then i rescued , so hasn't been running for a good year.

Last night i started replacing fuel line from fuel pump to gas tank ( petcock ) because i noticed the stock line was jammed underneath the airbox.
while there i trashed the whole airbox/filter ( if someone needs it , its yours just send me your address )
tonight after work i will put battery back and try again.
Kiwy roy , thank you .... i will do what you say and post back... i have the feeling that the engine does not start due lack of fuel... hopefully will find out tonight.
thanks !

note : i already have ordered a fuel filter.

[fotoguzzi]

Like Wayne said, fuel tap..
it's easy to break the wires coming out the bottom of the tap, then it won't open and the pump strains to suck rather than pump. you can get a manual tap or I will send you a good electric one that I've removed.
put ear to tank and listen for a metallic clank when you turn key, if no sound it isn't opening.
tap has a screen inside tank that could be clogged too.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Sure acts like it's out of gas for whatever reason. It *will* run with the electric petcock wires broken, though. Not a good thing, but that's not the problem. After finding that you don't have proper fuel flow..smile.. you'll have to find out why.

[pehayes]

Sounds exactly like one I worked on.  Remove the entire fuel tap from the tank and wash out all the sludge in there.  The EV has a huge fuel filter up under the tank in the tunnel.  It also has a very tiny fuel filter in the top of the fuel petcock.  Debris, rust, sludge in the tank will quickly plug that tiny filter and the pump strains under suction.  While you are at it, you might wish to ensure that the "moat" drain around the fuel cap is functioning properly.  If that drain is plugged (all too common) rain water gets into the tank and begins to cause rust.  Rust = flakes.  Flakes = plugged petcock filter.  Report back.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[fotoguzzi]

Does the bike still have original Siemens relays? Just for kicks I'd replace those first.
Dpguzzi.com. Has them.

[fotoguzzi]

I forget if the motor will turn but is kill switch in correct position?
Side stand switch?

[rodekyll]

I just went through this on the EV.  It had not been started in a couple of years.

Start by giving it a shot of starting fluid as you crank it.  If it's a fuel problem the engine will run until the starter fluid is gone.

Once I decided my problem was fuel related and that I had pressure to the injectors, I went the long route and pulled my injectors for testing.  I could have saved a lot of time if I'd just smacked them with a hammer first.

[arveno]

no kill switch and side stand switch is disconnected .

The first time i tried to start it , she ran for few seconds.... then died.

i am still at work , but tonight i will work on it .
Now that the air box is out and i got a smaller battery in it i have more room to check hoses and wires.
I have lifted the gas tank... i saw where the fuel filter is , a new one is on his way...
Question :
>The gas cap is locked open ( ? ) how do i fix that ? ... key will not turn .
>Fuel pet cock does not "click" when i turn the key on . ( is it a sign that it may be something wrong with it ? )
> how do i take the fuel pat cock out ? just unscrew it ?

sorry about the stupid questions but it's my fist efi guzzi....

thanks
Later
Marco

[Chuck in Indiana]

no kill switch and side stand switch is disconnected .

The first time i tried to start it , she ran for few seconds.... then died.

i am still at work , but tonight i will work on it .
Now that the air box is out and i got a smaller battery in it i have more room to check hoses and wires.
I have lifted the gas tank... i saw where the fuel filter is , a new one is on his way...
Question :
>The gas cap is locked open ( ? ) how do i fix that ? ... key will not turn .
>Fuel pet cock does not "click" when i turn the key on . ( is it a sign that it may be something wrong with it ? )
> how do i take the fuel pat cock out ? just unscrew it ?

sorry about the stupid questions but it's my fist efi guzzi....

thanks
Later
Marco

You have to remove the gas cap, disassemble it, and add some clearance with a die grinder. There have been many threads over the years, although the search function isn't working yet.
The wire is probably broken on the fuel petcock. It can be repaired by grinding away the potting material around the pin where it is broken off and resoldering, or.. a better solution, get a manual petcock. There is no need for an electric petcock on a fuel injected engine.
Yep.

[pehayes]

Careful!  The fuel petcock connector and the fuel level sensor wiring connections look identical.  If you inadvertently reverse them, the 12v surge of the petcock wire will fry the innards of the level sensor.  Look carefully at the wires before disconnecting.  One of the pairs of wires will have a small piece of red heat shrink tubing.  That red marking will be on both the upstream and downstream portions of wiring on either side of the connector.  Look carefully as that red band marking may be back up the wire loom by a few inches.

See the red band near the connector on this electric petcock?

A similar band will appear on the proper wire to connect on the wire harness.

Also note that long, fine-mesh, pencil-sized filter that sticks up inside the tank.  See, it doesn't take much to clog that filter and cause the symptoms you reported.

To remove the petcock from the tank, hold the petcock body with one wrench and then turn the hex nut between the petcock body and the tank body with another wrench.  You will find that this hex nut is "double threaded" with both a left hand thread and a right hand thread, the same logic as a common turnbuckle.  When fully unscrewed, both the petcock and the hex nut will fall free of the tank and you will find a resilient plastic seal inside the hex nut.  May the seal will stick to one surface or the other.  The idea behind the turnbuckle hex nut is to pinch the petcock directly against the fuel tank spigot and thereby squeeze the plastic seal between the two.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[Vagrant]

no kill switch and side stand switch is disconnected .

The first time i tried to start it , she ran for few seconds.... then died.

i am still at work , but tonight i will work on it .
Now that the air box is out and i got a smaller battery in it i have more room to check hoses and wires.
I have lifted the gas tank... i saw where the fuel filter is , a new one is on his way...
Question :
>The gas cap is locked open ( ? ) how do i fix that ? ... key will not turn .
>Fuel pet cock does not "click" when i turn the key on . ( is it a sign that it may be something wrong with it ? )
> how do i take the fuel pat cock out ? just unscrew it ?

sorry about the stupid questions but it's my fist efi guzzi....

thanks
Later
Marco

the no click is a possible answer. I once bought a 10000 mile used 2001 EV that ran great until it got above 90 with 90% humidity. then it appeared to be vapor locking. turns out it HAD NO FUSE in the fuse holder. don't know if the factory screwed up or the original owner but the pump put out so much pressure it over rode the shut off valve most of the time. easy to check to see if it's there and current is to both sides when the key is on. might be smart to clean all of the fuses while you are in there any way. they corrode.

[GuzziPilot]

no kill switch and side stand switch is disconnected .

The first time i tried to start it , she ran for few seconds.... then died.

i am still at work , but tonight i will work on it .
Now that the air box is out and i got a smaller battery in it i have more room to check hoses and wires.
I have lifted the gas tank... i saw where the fuel filter is , a new one is on his way...
Question :
>The gas cap is locked open ( ? ) how do i fix that ? ... key will not turn .
>Fuel pet cock does not "click" when i turn the key on . ( is it a sign that it may be something wrong with it ? )
> how do i take the fuel pat cock out ? just unscrew it ?

sorry about the stupid questions but it's my fist efi guzzi....

thanks
Later
Marco

Ah....the sticky fuel cap issue....is very well addressed here:

http://motoguzzimaintenance.wikifoundry-mobile.com/m/page/Moto+Guzzi+California+Fuel+Cap

My Jackal cap almost stranded me at a gas stop on my first visit to Galen's Maine Rally up to Skow town a few years back....got frustrated and turned the key fully expecting it to break off cleanly.....it didn't, but I finished the trip up to his wonderful, "picnic table bonfire rally" with a rubber bung in my tank.

Several guys at the rally shaved my cap down with a leatherman in about an hours time......never had another issue with that cap!!!

Lee

[arveno]

alright, good news , she runs .....
i think she can use a good tuning but at least now shes running.
I emptied the tank and cleaned the petcock and fired her up....
 and ordered this one off mg cycle.
http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=39

the fuel pump is still noisy tho, what could it be the reason ?
Also what are those two " canister" ( black cylinders on the left and right side , just above the passenger foot pegs ? there are hoses going in and out etc.. etc... can i get rid of them ?

and thanks for the tip on the gas cap !

thanks again for the help.
marco

[fotoguzzi]

Also what are those two " canister" ( black cylinders on the left and right side , just above the passenger foot pegs ? there are hoses going in and out etc.. etc... can i get rid of them ?

 

you can pull 10 feet of hose out of there too when you ditch the evap canisters (there will be no negative effects).. plug the manifold ports or put a short hose between the two.

[Kiwi_Roy]

If the fuel pump is extra noisy look for  blocked suction (petcock) or discharge (filter)
The fuel pump normally puts out about 45 psi, the fuel goes through the filter past the injectors then relieves back into the tank but
if the filters blocked it shoots up to 70 psi  and the internal relief lets go.

The Efiman document I sent you shows how to test the various components.

[Chuck in Indiana]

If the fuel pump is extra noisy look for  blocked suction (petcock) or discharge (filter)
The fuel pump normally puts out about 45 psi, the fuel goes through the filter past the injectors then relieves back into the tank but
if the filters blocked it shoots up to 70 psi  and the internal relief lets go.

The Efiman document I sent you shows how to test the various components.

And...it wears out the pump. You don't want to know what it costs..

[arveno]

Hi All ,
me again.... lol

There is a hose on the front of the gas tank ,close to the frame neck , actually there are two .
chubby one that is attached to the pressure regulator and a skinny one that goes inside the fuel filter ( the big one )  and then split in two and goes to the injectors.
Between the gas tank and the fuel filter I see there is  a small "filter" , it's a plastic round disc... looks like a filter to me .
is it something stock or something that the previous owner may have added ?

I am sorry i suck at explain things so let me know if you do not get what i am saying..... i forgot to take a picture last night...

thanks
Marco

[Chuck in Indiana]

Hi All ,
me again.... lol

There is a hose on the front of the gas tank ,close to the frame neck , actually there are two .
chubby one that is attached to the pressure regulator and a skinny one that goes inside the fuel filter ( the big one )  and then split in two and goes to the injectors.
Between the gas tank and the fuel filter I see there is  a small "filter" , it's a plastic round disc... looks like a filter to me .
is it something stock or something that the previous owner may have added ?

I am sorry i suck at explain things so let me know if you do not get what i am saying..... i forgot to take a picture last night...

thanks
Marco

Yeah, if there is a dinky "filter" before the filter..the Distinguished Previous Owner.. hmmmm no emoticons on a quote.. put it on there. Not good, get rid of it. On the pressure regulator on the front of the tank, the hose coming from the fuel filter should be there, the other port is just vented to atmosphere.

[arveno]

Yeah, if there is a dinky "filter" before the filter..the Distinguished Previous Owner.. hmmmm no emoticons on a quote.. put it on there. Not good, get rid of it. On the pressure regulator on the front of the tank, the hose coming from the fuel filter should be there, the other port is just vented to atmosphere.

LOL ! yes the distinguishes PO messed a lot with this poor bike .... i should have shown pictures of the exhaust he put on her.....
poor thing , she had straight garage made pipes .
ok , so i am going to take that filter out and see if the fuel pump works better.

BTW where can i get a pressure gauge to check fuel pressure ?

Kiwy roy sent me a good document where it explained very well , thanks  !!

[pehayes]

There is a hose on the front of the gas tank ,close to the frame neck , actually there are two .
chubby one that is attached to the pressure regulator and a skinny one that goes inside the fuel filter ( the big one )  and then split in two and goes to the injectors.
Between the gas tank and the fuel filter I see there is  a small "filter" , it's a plastic round disc... looks like a filter to me .
is it something stock or something that the previous owner may have added ?

How about a better explanation or even learn to post a digital pic.  Your description of hoses going to the filter and splitting in a "Y" configuration doesn't seem correct for this moto.  Fuel flows from the pump to the back end of the filter, exits from the front end of the filter and goes into the pressure regulator.  From the regulator, excess fuel continues forward to return to the front of the tank.  The 'regulated' fuel comes from the regulator back to the two injectors via a "Y" pipe device.  The small hose at the front of the tank is not involved here.  Yes, on the 98 there should be two hoses at the front of the tank tunnel.  The fat one is attached by a hex compression nut.  That is your fuel flow return.  The pump circulates a LOT more fuel than the engine could ever burn.  The excess has to come back into the tank via this hose.  Fuel is constantly circulating like a fish tank.  Don't ever turn on the key with that hose disconnected as it will spray a substantial volume.  The smaller hose is just a slip-on attachment which may have a spring clamp.  That smaller hose is a tank vent.  It does NOT go to the fuel filter.  It goes into your emissions carbon canisters to absorb fumes.  If you remove and discard all of the smog stuff, that hose can just be redirected to the ground.  That smaller hose may have two plastic fittings in line and it sounds like you are discribing one of them.  One is a one-way vapor valve and the other is a tipover leak prevention valve.  You can leave them in place or discard.

BTW, examine all these hoses carefully.  They are well known for age cracking and splitting right open as you ride.  Especially the final three pieces of hose involved with the "Y" pipe fitting.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA

[fotoguzzi]

are you sure it's a fuel hose? what size is it? maybe your talking about the tip over valve  on the tank vent hose and not a filter on the fuel line?

[arveno]

Patrick Hayes nailed it .....

I must have inhaled too much fuel last night lol   

and fortunately the hoses looks good , the only bad one was the one from petcock to fuel pump .
I am going to junk all the hoses and canisters that are not necessary to make things simpler....

[Kiwi_Roy]

One thing with this bike, if you are going to take the tank off disconnect the battery first.
I don't know haw many times I have been working on some electrics, turned the key on to check and sprayed fuel over the place, the pump and filter holds quite a bit

Read again Patrick's post #8, it's very important with this bike. Put a few drops of light oil in the drain hole, if you are lucky it will drain away giving the drain tube a coat of oil, if not you have a right sod of a job to clean it out. The drain is shaped like a pigtail, I have never been able to thread a wire through it.

[rodekyll]

If there are mods made to the hoses and such under the tank check to be sure the little spigot on the pressure regulator valve is not plugged and does not have anything attached to it.  That's the atmosphere side of the pressure diaphragm and it must vent unobstructed.