The refinement of the MG engines

[Kev m]

I was thinking about this topic today.

I was riding the V7 first, and then the Spprty later.

To the OP, I get what you're asking. What can be improved? You're not asking if there's a better configuration, you're asking if components or design of the assembly can be improved upon.

But that got me thinking about why I enjoy Harleys and Guzzis in particular. And I've owned and ridden other brands like BMW and JAPanInc. but they've usually not captured my imagination or soul.. And why the difference?

It's mechanical, but it translates to something emotional.

The MORE refined you get, the more the rider losses physical touch/feedback with the bike.

The smoother it gets, the more the disconnected you feel.

The traction control, ride by wire, ABS, active suspension, etc. all take steps to remove you from the experience of riding an internal combustion driven cycle.

We all have different levels of tolerance for those things. But there's a point for all of us when a bike becomes to antiseptic, too isolating from the heartbeat of the motor or the conditions of the environment. I think that's part of the success of Harley... And why so many shun JAPanInc. products that are technically "superior" but lack "soul".

A certain about of visceral connection through vibration, or non-isolating suspension adds to the overall experience and the connection between the rider and bike.

So a balance should be struck.

[ohiorider]

I like my pushrod twin...

Maybe they realize that they can't out-Kawasaki Kawasaki. For the high tech performance market they have Aprillia. It would make sense if they kept Guzzi as the more emotional muscle-bike brand akin to a Euro Harley.

So do I.  Just got home an hour or so ago after putting in 325 miles on some of SE Ohio's finest roads.  Even making a wrong turn and 'getting lost' for a few miles only added to the fun.   Love the BB 1200 2v pushrod twin.

[Gliderjohn]

My Norge just lets through enough pleasant vibration to let you know that you are riding a substantial V twin, but without a tach and rev limiter one could easily over rev it. . My police model T-3 does not have a tach but one really does not need to have one as it telegraphs its happiness or not clearly to you if one is at all listening. They both can make me grin however. 
GliderJohn

[bad Chad]

Oh the other hand, you guys could just try to get some sleep.

[wymple]

I don't need more HP, I don't need more speed. I went from a GS1100 Suzuki to a V65, then a Cal II. Moto Guzzi to me is a different animal. I wasn't looking for the most efficient refrigerator I could find. I've never climbed on or off one thinking I'd like some other motor. It's pleasurable, fun, gets curious eyes when parked, starts conversations. Better doesn't always trump different, and reliability is still there anyway. I don't see what's not to like. I've seen an awful lot of Honda/Harley/BMW/Triumph riders show up at our Guzzi rallies. Must be something that they like in our world.

[kingoffleece]

kev m makes some good points.  My V7 really provides a fantastic riding experience because it feels like a machine and not some computer controlled gizmo.

I guess that makes me an old geezer.  But chasing the last quarter second, 48 levels of traction, and such, well, just why?  I get that folks want it so the market provides it-but some of us don't want that.

Anyway, good discussion.

[esmurrell]

I was reading this thread and thought everyone has done a reasonable job of stating their opinions about the level of refinement in the MG engine.  So, I think I will add my thoughts on the subject.  I have both a 2012 Norge and a 2014 BMW R1200RT.  You might say they are two versions of the same thing and I would be the first to agree with you.  However, there is significant room for improvement of the Norge design in my opinion.  Certainly the engine is one of the areas that needs specific attention so I will mention that first.  The engine feels especially visceral and in a very positive way.  I like everything about how the engine feels and I connected I feel to the bike because of it.  However, it would be foolish to think there are legions of people that will write off a bike because of how it stacks up in the specifications.  If MG can find a way to keep the feel and add power (self adjusting valves, water cooling, etc.) it will ultimately attract more people to the fold.  That's good for MG and ultimately we will appreciate it as well.  When thinking about the other areas where the Norge falls short relative to the RT, handling is an area and gadgets.  Now I don't believe the Norge needs all of the gadgets that currently adorn the RT but it is woefully behind.  I'm sure there is a broad spectrum of opinion on this but certainly it affects the appeal and consequently the sale of the bike.  Sure, there are those of you that say it is perfect the way it is but MG can't survive solely on what the few of us think.  They need product with a wider appeal.  That means more sales and ultimately a better product for us all.  While they are at it, they could modernize other aspects of the bike as well, LED lighting (all lights), better panniers (waterproof please), more travel on the windshield (or save the money and remove the electric bits), modern dash, etc.  They have a great foundation and I believe all of us here will agree with that.  Just get the other items completed and this bike will cross the finish line in super great shape. 

I'll stop now and go to bed.  Keep the comments coming.  Hopefully someone at MG (Piaggio) will read and heed.

Eric

[rocker59]

  When thinking about the other areas where the Norge falls short relative to the RT, handling is an area and gadgets.  Now I don't believe the Norge needs all of the gadgets that currently adorn the RT but it is woefully behind.  I'm sure there is a broad spectrum of opinion on this but certainly it affects the appeal and consequently the sale of the bike.   

What is wrong with the Norge's handling, as compared to the RT ??

What are these "gadgets" you speak of ??

[charlie b]

Cruise control  :)

[atavar]

Hey, I like my Norge (made by Caterpiller) Cruise control.  Simple yellow oring that looks like...

[Dilliw]

I think MG is pretty much at the refinement limit.  Hydraulic lifters (I've got those!) would be nice and maybe a shorter wheelbase.  I don't see the need to reduce much weight, improve ground clearance, or anything like that.  ABS on the Griso would be nice. 

Once you remove the self imposed limitations of the Guzzi formula, an air cooled V-twin with shaft drive, then you could go all sorts of places.  But why do that with this brand?  Probably best for all involved to let Guzzi fade into the sunset and put the innovation and refinement into the Aprilia line.

[LowRyter]

R59-  Regarding handling, I've ridden the Norge and RT and can comment that the telelever Beemer is like power steering.  This makes the bike very agile.  Whether telelever handles better is of course subjective. Basically the trade-off is ease of steering vs road feel.  Ease of steering is nothing to sneeze at when you can maneuver a big touring bike like a scooter.

[rocker59]

R59-  Regarding handling, I've ridden the Norge and RT and can comment that the telelever Beemer is like power steering.  This makes the bike very agile.  Whether telelever handles better is of course subjective. Basically the trade-off is ease of steering vs road feel.  Ease of steering is nothing to sneeze at when you can maneuver a big touring bike like a scooter.

Yeah.  I've ridden Telelever bikes and found them a bit strange.  Of course, BMW faithful find standard forks strange.

[esmurrell]

What is wrong with the Norge's handling, as compared to the RT ??

What are these "gadgets" you speak of ??

The Norge is a good handling bike.  I actually like it.  The plain simple truth is the RT is wayyyy better!  It has a slightly lower CoG and is less weight and the Telelever enables it to have a telepathy the Norge just can't muster.  I am not throwing salt at the Norge, I love the feel of it.  The RT is just better.

On the gadget front, almost everything.  The RT has a radio (w/satellite and iPod USB stick capability) built in Bluetooth, electronic suspension and traction control, integrated GPS, etc.  Way more gadgets than the Norge.  I realize MG doesn't have the volume or budget to design all of these things in but they make the difference for many buyers.  I'd gladly part with a few extra bucks for the Norge to have these things.

Eric

[Vasco DG]

If they go next gen on the Norge it'll probably use the 7SM like the Calis and then it will get all the fruit.

[Chuck in Indiana]

The Norge is a good handling bike.  I actually like it.  The plain simple truth is the RT is wayyyy better!  It has a slightly lower CoG and is less weight and the Telelever enables it to have a telepathy the Norge just can't muster.  I am not throwing salt at the Norge, I love the feel of it.  The RT is just better.

On the gadget front, almost everything.  The RT has a radio (w/satellite and iPod USB stick capability) built in Bluetooth, electronic suspension and traction control, integrated GPS, etc.  Way more gadgets than the Norge.  I realize MG doesn't have the volume or budget to design all of these things in but they make the difference for many buyers.  I'd gladly part with a few extra bucks for the Norge to have these things.

Eric

Less weight? Are you sure? Telepathy? I don't think so.. it steers very lightly, but there is no front end feedback to speak of. Lots of electronic widgets to fail that I don't use. The Norge is just better.. at lots less money.. and .. you can actually work on it yourself. YMMV, of course.. :)

[tobydmv]

How about a better combustion design?  Smaller valve inc. angle, lighter rockers, more compact cchamber, central plug, better squish, better port design.  Thats all easily done and you can keep the pushrod setup.  It might offer better MPG and slightly more power.

While we are on the topic, i'd actually love to see a new motor.  One that favors the original Guzzi vtwin layout w OHC.  You know the design that the other Italian bike maker stole?

[kevdog3019]

Small block.  :Beating_A_Dead_Hors e_by_liviu