New 2014 Norges going for a song

[canuguzzi]

I understand what Jackson is saying completely having been stranded with my '13 Norge this summer with an oil leak. Had similar issues with my '07 Norge. Having no mechanical skills my Norge has been in the shop for about a month now. Don't get me wrong, this is the 5th MG I've purchased new. I love the marque but have thought about jumping ship myself. Nothing really gives me what my Norge gives me in enjoyment, however. I suppose these issues can occur with any brand. Boils down to dealer network I feel. If you're going to choose MG you have to know what you may be in for.

That was your experience and not what most experience. Lots of bikes have had oil leaks,  cooling fluid leaks, fuel tank leaks. It can happen to any bike brand and any model of bike.

The other comment (someone else) about blown oil seals? Like no other bikes have that happen on occasion?

Now, if someone wants to not buy a Norge based on isolated incidents or the few that make the rounds on forums that is one thing, to each their own.

To say the Norge is unreliable based on that is pure rubbish and those who'd say that know it.

Plainly put, if the few incidents where someone got stranded with a particular brand or model of bike is the criteria for purchasing or jot, then pack up the kids and head to Wally World in the Rambler because every brand and model or motorcycle ever made has had some failures that left the owner stranded.

What I'd like to read is just what those who say the Norge is unreliable consider " reliable" and then let's see if any motorcycle ever made can meet that criteria. I bet that no matter what is considered reliable, there will be an example of the motorcycle they bought or would buy having failed to meet that standard.

Any takers?

[blackcat]

A friend of mine has a 2012 Norge and part of the wing from the bird on the front of fairing broke off and it took him a month to get a replacement. Can you believe that, one month!

[canuguzzi]

A friend of mine has a 2012 Norge and part of the wing from the bird on the front of fairing broke off and it took him a month to get a replacement. Can you believe that, one month!

Did it have to be trailered?

[Dilliw]

There's a beautiful 2014 Norge in pearl at Rider's Hill.  I think he said he had 2 more in the back with one of them in mahogany.   Price is $11,295.

We bought  a Powerball to see if he would take that instead of cash but couldn't close the deal. :(

[blackcat]

Did it have to be trailered?

I don't think so.

[MGPilot]

I get it that these are great prices, but if they are 2013 - 2014's that can't seem to get sold....doesn't that tend to imply that you're taking on something that you'd better like for a long time as you won't be able to sell it either?....except at a much greater loss than, say, a BMW?

Just askin'.....

[JeffOlson]

^ Well, that is a good point. However, I personally NEVER make money when I sell a vehicle, whether bike or auto. I always buy high and sell low and therefore "lose" money. But really, what have I lost? Nothing! I got to use and enjoy the vehicle while it was in my care. Then on to the next one!

Speaking of BMWs, not too long ago, I bought a 750Li for $30,000. (The original owner had paid around $90,000!) I drove it long and hard for several years and finally sold it for $10,000. Did I lose money? I don't think so.

If you buy a new Norge for $11,000 or $12,000 and ride it and enjoy it for years and thousands of miles and then sell it for half of what you paid for it, so what?

[canuguzzi]

∆∆


Cars and motorcycles are rarely investments of anything but a depreciating value. Few things are free and riding a motorcycle isn't one of them. Who know, 50 years from now, a well maintained Norge will probably sell for close to what you paid for it but then so would a lot of things that old.

If you really like the Norge, what you can sell it for doesn't matter.

About the resale value of that 2 year old FJR, ST1300 or better yet,  a nearly $100,000 Mercedes...

[Bill Hagan]

****

If you really like the Norge, what you can sell it for doesn't matter.

****

****

If you buy a new Norge for $11,000 or $12,000 and ride it and enjoy it for years and thousands of miles and then sell it for half of what you paid for it, so what?

Yup.

I solve this nonproblem by keeping mine.  And my other Guzzis, too.

Sold my Ballabio in 2006 ... to my continuing regret.  Otherwise, I just ride 'em, admire 'em, mess with 'em (can't call what I do wrenching; it's more entertainment  ), and just appreciate 'em.  Not fiscally, but physically.

If get the serious hots for a new one -- as I have just now for a espresso e grappa Norge and a V7 -- I'll just have to get better at moving the harem around in the Moto Grappa as if I were in a moto-Rubik's-Cube.   

Bill

P.S. "No, Kathi, I did not say I was buying a new Norge and V7!"   

"Yet."   

[Lannis]

Yup.

I solve this nonproblem by keeping mine.  And my other Guzzis, too.

Sold my Ballabio in 2006 ... to my continuing regret.  Otherwise, I just ride 'em, admire 'em, mess with 'em (can't call what I do wrenching; it's more entertainment  ), and just appreciate 'em.  Not fiscally, but physically.

If get the serious hots for a new one -- as I have just now for a espresso e grappa Norge and a V7 -- I'll just have to get better at moving the harem around in the Moto Grappa as if I were in a moto-Rubik's-Cube.   

Bill

P.S. "No, Kathi, I did not say I was buying a new Norge and V7!"   

"Yet."   

Agreed and right.

I'm always surprised when people are concerned about "how much they can get when they sell the bike" before they even buy it .... Buying new vehicles of ANY kind is a losing proposition.

However, things like my '75 Norton Interstate will probably hold their value pretty well.    That'll be a concern for the estate distribution, though, not for me!

Lannis

[charlie b]

What I'd like to read is just what those who say the Norge is unreliable consider " reliable" and then let's see if any motorcycle ever made can meet that criteria. I bet that no matter what is considered reliable, there will be an example of the motorcycle they bought or would buy having failed to meet that standard.

Any takers?

Yes, my Honda NT and the collected experience of about 100 of them on the US forum.  At least two in the US with over 100k miles and NO oil leaks or blown seals.  A couple of others had bad fork seals due to gunk not cleaned off tubes (fixed mine with a feeler guage).  One had a rear end go bad due to a bad mechanic (rear wheel was installed incorrectly).  One of the 100k bikes had nothing but normal services done on it.

So, a bike can be made to go for long mileage without major issues.

I do have to admit, Honda did a terrible job with the pannier latches.  But, I'll take the bad latches rather than a main seal.

[MGPilot]

I'm always surprised when people are concerned about "how much they can get when they sell the bike" before they even buy it .... Buying new vehicles of ANY kind is a losing proposition.
Lannis

I think it's reasonable to understand how much you're paying for your entertainment.

I've walked away from salesmen who started talking about buying a new car as an investment. That's stupid.

But, it's completely reasonable to assess how much something will actually cost you and how liquid it is.  Things can change in your life that will dictate a sale.

I'm surprised when people spend money on something (esp. something that isn't necessary) and don't consider:
 - how much it really costs (which includes depreciation),
 - how liquid it is,
 - how much does maintenance impose on your use of it and the costs of the maintenance,
 - fixed costs vs. variable costs,
 - how much your life schedule and weather will affect your use,
 - the ways in which it's rewarding to you, etc.

Those who never consider stuff like this end up paying child support for kids they're not even sure that are theirs....   

For example, if it's rewarding to do your own maintenance and upgrades, then the down-time can be as rewarding as riding. Friends of mine enjoy working on and upgrading their airplanes as much or more than they like to fly. They like to tinker or take on significant projects.  That's different from someone who got their bike (airplane) to be with others and out riding, don't do their own maintenance nor find it rewarding, and now it's in the shop for month(s) of the best riding weather.

Grey matter is all you got to differentiate you from a stump.  (Well, ok, your desire to accessorize makes you different, too.)

[canuguzzi]

Yes, my Honda NT and the collected experience of about 100 of them on the US forum.  At least two in the US with over 100k miles and NO oil leaks or blown seals.  A couple of others had bad fork seals due to gunk not cleaned off tubes (fixed mine with a feeler guage).  One had a rear end go bad due to a bad mechanic (rear wheel was installed incorrectly).  One of the 100k bikes had nothing but normal services done on it.

So, a bike can be made to go for long mileage without major issues.

I do have to admit, Honda did a terrible job with the pannier latches.  But, I'll take the bad latches rather than a main seal.

No NT has ever had a major problem, not one of them? That was my point, not what some forum members experienced because forum members aren't representative of all who own that specific motorcycle, not even close.

[canuguzzi]

Sorry but the Honda NT has its own set of problems with bad fuel pumps, plug caps and various electrical maladies.

Want to try again?

It is pointless. Every bike made will across all those sold have some that experience problems. Running to forums and making statements like one would rather deal with quirky latches instead of leaking seals is like saying you'd rather drink water than gasoline, implying it is a choice between one or the other.

Just where is that criteria for reliability? No one has one because if they dare say the bike must be perfect they know there is no such thing, not a Norge and not a Honda NT.

The failure to properly maintain or service a motorcycle has nothing to do with its reliability other than self inflicted pain.

[charlie b]

No NT has ever had a major problem, not one of them? That was my point, not what some forum members experienced because forum members aren't representative of all who own that specific motorcycle, not even close.

I did not say that.  Only the 100 or so that are represented on the US forum.  About the same sample size as the Norge in here.  So, "apples to apples".  If there were very many NT's with major problems they would probably show up as questions in the forum at some point, kinda like Norge problems in here.

And there are many more NT's in Europe, some with several hundred thousand miles with no major problems.

I still say that the Norge, and Guzzi in general, has a long ways to go to get to the reliability level of many of the other mfgs.

[Lannis]

I think it's reasonable to understand how much you're paying for your entertainment.

I've walked away from salesmen who started talking about buying a new car as an investment. That's stupid.

But, it's completely reasonable to assess how much something will actually cost you and how liquid it is.  Things can change in your life that will dictate a sale.

I'm surprised when people spend money on something (esp. something that isn't necessary) and don't consider:
 - how much it really costs (which includes depreciation),
 - how liquid it is,
 - how much does maintenance impose on your use of it and the costs of the maintenance,
 - fixed costs vs. variable costs,
 - how much your life schedule and weather will affect your use,
 - the ways in which it's rewarding to you, etc.

Those who never consider stuff like this end up paying child support for kids they're not even sure that are theirs....   

For example, if it's rewarding to do your own maintenance and upgrades, then the down-time can be as rewarding as riding. Friends of mine enjoy working on and upgrading their airplanes as much or more than they like to fly. They like to tinker or take on significant projects.  That's different from someone who got their bike (airplane) to be with others and out riding, don't do their own maintenance nor find it rewarding, and now it's in the shop for month(s) of the best riding weather.

Grey matter is all you got to differentiate you from a stump.  (Well, ok, your desire to accessorize makes you different, too.)

All that is reasonable, yes.   I was just thinking about the depreciation part.    Apparently, from the INITIAL asking prices of people trying to sell bikes that they bought one year ago and now want to sell, they have no idea of the degree of depreciation that a new vehicle has - they'll try to sell a year-old vehicle for more than a dealer will sell one new with a few rebates or whatever ....

If I thought there was even a 10% chance that my life situation would change within 12 months such that I would be forced to sell a new vehicle, I would never have even considered the vehicle in the first place.   But that's just me .....

Lannis

[canuguzzi]

I did not say that.  Only the 100 or so that are represented on the US forum.  About the same sample size as the Norge in here.  So, "apples to apples".  If there were very many NT's with major problems they would probably show up as questions in the forum at some point, kinda like Norge problems in here.

And there are many more NT's in Europe, some with several hundred thousand miles with no major problems.

I still say that the Norge, and Guzzi in general, has a long ways to go to get to the reliability level of many of the other mfgs.

I didn't say you said anything, I asked the question to see if that was what you were implying.

What do you consider a major problem? See, that is the thing here, no one yet will come right out and say what they consider is reliable when it comes to motorcycles.

Many major problems reported can be traced to lack of maintenance, no service or poorly executed service or someone fiddling around with something they had no business messing with.

All I'm asking for is for a criteria to be cited if someone is going to talk about reliability.

For the record, there was a post here and the reliability of the current model Norge called into question and cited as a reason not to buy one, based on anecdotal information on a forum where no pattern of inherent failure was evident.

Some NTs have gone more than a couple hundred thousand miles without a major failure. Why only some? Why not all? Because there is no such thing.

How about this?

A reliable motorcycle is one where across the model none have had a failure that prevents the motorcycle from being used for it's designed purpose.

If those saying the Norge is unreliable and that is what has been said, the least they could do is state what the criteria for claiming  what they consider reliable is. If not, then it is sour grapes and its justification of an decision made on the basis of anecdotes and few facts.

A comment about seals. Rubbish. Seals are expendable items. They can fail on anything for a variety of reasons. I have experienced a real seal failure, it was replaced. NT have had seal failures too, go search you'll find them.


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NT 700 Final Drive Failure?

    "Read an interesting letter in the April issue of Motorcycle Consumer News.
    Seems this gentleman was riding his NT on a rural road at about 35mph when a bad vibration started, followed by loud rumbling noises from the rear drive area.
    Bike was picked up by a Honda dealer. Upon inspection the dealer found the rear ring gear pinion bearing had failed, sending metal pieces into the ring gear. Estimated cost of repair was $1,300 to $1,400. His oil was at the proper level when failure occurred.
    Dealer contacted Honda, who admitted it should not have happened, but the bike was out of warranty and they could offer no help, final answer.
    Could there be a number of NT's out there that have bad pinion bearings?
    I may keep a close watch on the rear end oil for signs of trouble.......bad color, smell, metal shavings, etc."

Then there is this from NTSA:

"Tl* the contact owns a 2010 honda nt700. The contact stated that the while traveling 35 mph, the rear wheel vibrated violently and then seized. The vehicle was taken to the dealer and the contact was informed that the rear pinion bearing needed to be replaced. The vehicle was not repaired. The failure and current mileages were 6,000.
"

Now, would this be enough to stop anyone from buying an NT? Some, sure. A well reasoned decision? Up to the reader.

[charlie b]

Yep, IIRC that was the guy whose rear wheel was installed incorrectly.  And, it is the only instance in the US that I have heard about.  Yes, he did fight Honda over that one as he had an extended warranty.  And he did lose.  Mainly because of the service dept he had taken it to.  They would not admit fault.

Can you find any other major problems or is that it? 

There were a couple of guys who had water pump problems.  Leaking a little, but, not enough to stop them.  They were fixed at the next service.  Three that I know of.  Bad fuel pumps?  I only heard about one of those.  Plug caps.  Yep, there was a bad batch of them.  Most guys had theirs replaced even if they were not in the Honda Service Bulletin.  Electrical maladies?  If you mean the switches needed a squirt of contact cleaner every now and then, yes.  The guy who competed in the Iron Butt this year had a wire to his alternator break on the last day.  Only case of that I have heard of as well.


I still venture that Guzzi has a ways to go with more expensive issues.

[canuguzzi]

Yep, IIRC that was the guy whose rear wheel was installed incorrectly.  And, it is the only instance in the US that I have heard about.  Yes, he did fight Honda over that one as he had an extended warranty.  And he did lose.  Mainly because of the service dept he had taken it to.  They would not admit fault.

Can you find any other major problems or is that it? 

There were a couple of guys who had water pump problems.  Leaking a little, but, not enough to stop them.  They were fixed at the next service.  Three that I know of.  Bad fuel pumps?  I only heard about one of those.  Plug caps.  Yep, there was a bad batch of them.  Most guys had theirs replaced even if they were not in the Honda Service Bulletin.  Electrical maladies?  If you mean the switches needed a squirt of contact cleaner every now and then, yes.  The guy who competed in the Iron Butt this year had a wire to his alternator break on the last day.  Only case of that I have heard of as well.


I still venture that Guzzi has a ways to go with more expensive issues.

Um, pretty sure we all know that this isn't a comparison thread Norge VS NT but about the sale prices for the Norge and then someone said based on a thread(s) that weren't indicative of major reliability issues for all 2014 models (what he used in the post) that it was unreliable. In fact, he pointed to a single thread to make the decision not to buy.

How about this, you clearly state the major reliability problems with the 2014 Norge that apply to a large portion of all those in the model year, or even the 2013 model year and then see how it goes. Otherwise this is just a slugfest about the NT vs Norge and sorry but the NT isn't even in the same class.
Now, can you state the criteria or what you consider reliable?

[BAT 11]

A new 2014 Norge for under $10k is a great price.  Grab one if you like the model.  Roller tappets, pulls like a train and will give you a permanent grin.  Mine is a 2011 , great bike, has been set up correctly by dealer and has no issues at all. Iam lucky enough to get out on weekdays and usually do 2-300 km rides. Does the motor good to get hot and stretch its legs. Fuel av at 4-5 to 5 litres per 100 kms. Next year, planning a ride to Darwin. I trust this bike to perform well.  Go for it!   

[elvisboy77]

Dear Charlie B and Norge Pilot- to paraphrase a Ford owners tshirt-

I'd rather push a Moto Guzzi than ride a Honda!

Lol just kidding but I hope you get my point.

[segesta]

About the resale value of that 2 year old FJR, ST1300 or better yet,  a nearly $100,000 Mercedes...

Which is why I love the 2010 K1300GT I bought this summer for 12 grand. Ridiculously overpriced at its originally MSRP of $23K, but the best bike I ever owned for $12K. On the other hand, depreciation and these Guzzi deals are killing me on the California 1400 I want to sell. It'll be $8,000 before it's over...

[K250]

So who all went and snapped up one of these good deals? 

This has been a good late summer to buy a Guzzi!

[kingoffleece]

Me.

[K250]

NICE work King of Fleece!!!  Lets hear all the cool details!