Rolf's V11 Bevelbox tool.

[Vasco DG]

Rolf Asked me to post a pic so here it is. He'll take it from here.

[lucky phil]

Nice quality too there Pete,certainly looks better than my attempt from a 1/2'' drive socket.
What do you use to lock the crownwheel and pinion when undoing the pinion nut?
Ciao 

[redrider]

I'll take one.

[Vasco DG]

Nice quality too there Pete,certainly looks better than my attempt from a 1/2'' drive socket.
What do you use to lock the crownwheel and pinion when undoing the pinion nut?
Ciao

You don't have to. The ring just crushes down the rear part of the queer split race bearing.

Pete

[lucky phil]

You don't have to. The ring just crushes down the rear part of the queer split race bearing.

Pete

No Pete I mean the pinion hex nut that holds the yoke on.
Ciao

[Vasco DG]

Once you've got the ring nut off you can heat the box case and pull the entire bearing and pinion assembly out using a slide hammer if needed. Then you just need an old you're from a Convert driveshaft to hold in a vice to hold the splines on the pinion and a sodding great ring spanner of whatever size the nut is.

Pete

[Rolf Halvorsen]

Good morning everyone. Someone has to sleep when other works. Pete and I live on each side of the globe - but I think we are equal dedicated to this bike design.

Yes I asked Pete to help me with posting this picture of a castle nut tool a good friend of mine helped med machine. I thought the castle nut was glued into position to prevent unscrewing - just like the pinion nut. So I decided to go full inn and used a hardened steel pipe (long 41mm). But it was not glued in - it came out smooth. After (of course always too late) I found out that the anti rotation function came from a thin washer with many fingers I already had disassembled.

Well - why am I going in? I am restoring "nut and bolt" a 2001 V11 Rosso Mandello. I have done EVERYTHING else - so the rear drive remained. At first look the black paint was terrible. I could almost remove it with my nails. And I wanted to change the sealing ring around the pinion since I have changed everyone else.

About 3 months ago I asked the forum about the tool for this castle nut. Got reply from only Pete and one other guy from USA that I don't remember the name of. I was disappointed that I could not find one to buy. It must be since the factory have produced this castle nut. Well if this tool does not exist - that must mean that "nobody" has been in there - and that's what made me decide that I would.

The first problem was to open the pinion screw which was glued into position. I found an old 36mm fixed arm tool (I will send Pete a picture that he can post). This had the needed depth and angle to enter the nut head properly. But I had to remove some of the surrounding steel and to make it totally flat since the nut is so shallow. After several attempts with a flame gun - and all of my 100kg's weight - It came undone. This is the worst nut I ever have worked with. I did this nut before I removed the castle nut mainly because I did not have the castle nut tool at that time.

So, what did I find?

The front small roller bearing was completely destroyed!!!!!!

I could not a malfunction before - so this came as a surprise. After a little bit of thinking - my theory is that it can not take the load. In my life I would say it is a wrong design.

I am interested in comment from other that have been in there - because I think many other drives with the same malfunction.

Rolf (living in Norway)

[Vasco DG]

Rolf, I'll post up the pic in the next couple of hours but it was Friday night and a host of our friends kids turned up so we did drinking and shouting at the top pub .

Christmas is just around the corner and for the first time in years all of our dipshit spawn are going to be here. I've got most of the work pushed out of the shop and next week I hope to clear up the brothel that is my bench so I can finally strip my original engine and get it fit so I can slip it into Ralf's bike to get him mobile again. He can then rebuild his engine when funds allow. The wreck in Sydney we were hoping to score went for stupid money.

Enough of my ranting.

Goodnight!

Pete

[pauldaytona]

Rolf, my small bearing was broken too. there is a difference in the mounting between first series (that you have) and the second starting 2001/2002 with the le mans. I made I tool too, I didn't see your question, but shipping would be expensive. Mine was very hard to get out, first after heating the alu housing it would move.

[Rolf Halvorsen]

As far as I can see, the only difference between first and second series is that the small roller bearing in the second series is positioned by a plate and 2 screws.

Your small bearing was broken as mine was. Even Pete report that the ones he has opened have had damaged bearings.

My conclusion will then be that "all" of these rear drives (V11 bevelboxes) have damaged small roller bearing that should be replaced. Am I correct?

Rolf

[pauldaytona]

correct the plate, but then it breaks too 

The amount of play on the ingoing axle is bigger when small bearing is gone. But it will always have a bit play.
If they are all gone, no idea. The one in my bike is now from an early v11, and that doesn't feel broken. And is original.

Somewhere in the v11lemans.com forum are picturesfrom when I replaced it.  here: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2391&hl=reardrive&page=1

[Bruce Reader]

I'll buy one.

Cheers

Bruce

[Vasco DG]

How Rolf undoes the nut!

[Rolf Halvorsen]

Pete

I am impressed that you already in 2004 wrote about this rear drive problem. I bought my first V11 in about 2008. It was an Rosso Mandello in eBay USA. Buy it now for 4.500 USD. You wrote and said that someone should act and buy it - since the seller would sell it in pieces if he got no sail for the bike. I bought it - restored it lightly - and sold it in Norway.

This autumn I bought another Rosso Mandello with dome damages on both side. I wanted to go real deep and do a nut and bolt restoration. Everything has gone smooth except the rear drive part. I will change the small roller bearing at the end of the pinion + the sealing ring + O-ring around the castellated nut.

I am irritated about that the design seems not to be according to my wishes - but I will have to accept it and live with it.

Thank you once more for your dedication for these bikes, and sharing your thoughts with the rest of us.

Rolf

[Vasco DG]

It's interesting to note that the CARC design which also uses a nose bearing to support the pinion is cross drilled at the point between the two opposed tapered roller bearings that support it and also drilled lengthwise to the nose. I can only assume that this has been done to increase oil flow to the nose bearing, (which is incidentally of a different design.).

It was that change that made me dismiss the idea of solid spacing the tapered rollers as doing so would of cut off that avenue of lubrication. This is tedious as the reliance on a comparatively light preload on the pinion nut coupled with the factory's obstinate refusal to use loctite on it is one of the issues that dogs the design. Failures are rare but they do occurr. My pinion nut dumped it's preload, busted the locking tangs off the tab washer used to secure it and destroyed the peg nut threads at about 80,000km. Because I caught it before it had any real chance to do any damage it was an easy fix, (The peg nut and lock washer are the same parts used to retain the crank sprocket on early Tonti framed bike engines.) I simply installed a new nut and lock washer, tightened the nut to 60-ish inch pounds with a dab of 'Never-come-off-again' green Loctite, bent up the locking tab and reassembled the bevelbox. 15,000km later and no strange noises or muck in the oil so I think it's all good.

Pete

[lucky phil]

Once you've got the ring nut off you can heat the box case and pull the entire bearing and pinion assembly out using a slide hammer if needed. Then you just need an old you're from a Convert driveshaft to hold in a vice to hold the splines on the pinion and a sodding great ring spanner of whatever size the nut is.

Pete

Thanks Pete, Ihave a spare unit i want to rebuild at some point and hadnt thought about it for a while but that seems like the best solution for sure. I was thinking of a locking device for the output side but yours is better. Which reminds me the shimming of the input shaft must be a PITA installing,checking and removing,reshimming and installing the input shaft and bearing assy into the housing.
Ciao

[Vasco DG]

Yes, an utter PITA! CARC pinion bearings are even worse. You have to install pinion into needle roller nose bearing. Add what you guess is right amount of shim, add outer race, then crush spacer, then second race and cone, seal sleeve etc. Tighten peg nut to 60-70 inch pounds by hook or by crook, then tighten down the collar, Mark up crownwheel, check backlash, check witness, shriek, tear hair, pull it all to bits and start again!

God thing they are solid. They're a pain in the arse, especially as you can't buy bits off the shelf!

Pete