V50 II clutch problem

[papercutout]

I think it might be my first post here, so apologies for that. There will be more that don't involve me crying for help! (I can't see a technical forum either, which is odd!)

I bought my bike non-running or riding - never the best plan!

Mostly got her built, got her running, knocked her in/out of gear and finally thought about taking her for a ride. Next up was checking the clutch, so I could change gear on the move - hang on, that's bloody stiff, and it's not disengaging! Don't worry about it being stiff, that's now fixed - it wasn't adjusted properly, and all I was doing was bending the clutch arm thingy!

Here is the setup for your perusing pleasure/if anyone wants to re-familiarise themselves:




So, since that point I have: torn the bike apart again, removed the gearbox,, pulled the pushrod out the front, then removed the bits from the back, checked the thrust bearing, re-assemgled, checked the pushrod movement and made sure the clutch is installed correctly. Then I adjusted the clutch set-up, and couldn't see anything wrong, so I threw it back together again. (oh how easy this sounds, we're actually talking several days work!)


The problem: When I pull the clutch lever, the clutch isn't disengaging. I've put the bike into gear, and you can try to rotate the rear wheel, but it is rock solid. Not even slightly loose. I've actually got another Guzzi V50 here that works, that I refuse to pull apart (especially since it isn't mine). But everything LOOKS right, clutch lever feels like it should, clutch arm thingy moves properly and so the pushrod is moving. No disengagement.


Has anyone got any (good) idea's?

Gratuitous photo of the bike as it sits right now (bloody rain stopped play!):

[Tom]

I see no mention of you going into the clutch area.  The parts can sometimes stick together.  Since you have the bike ready for disassembly.  Pull the transmission and check the clutch, pressure plate, throw out bearing etc.

I was able to unstick my LMIII clutch by running the engine and operating the clutch but it wasn't sitting for a long time.

[papercutout]

Sorry, didn't put that in my list of things I did!

I took the flywheel and clutchplate (parts B + C) off the rest of the assembly. I haven't D, E & F apart though. Throw-out/thrust bearing is part 'C' in the top technical diagram. I've had those out and they don't look like they've worn enough to need replacing - the 'hard' layer is still intact (I was looking at pics of worn ones the other day).

Thanks!

[Tom]

Yeah...D, E & F.  E & F could be rusted together.

[papercutout]

I'll look at pulling them apart tomorrow, but having already had the gearbox off, and the flywheel/clutch plate and seen no evidence of rust anywhere, I bolted it back together. If things had looked at all suspect, I'd have pulled it ALL apart the first time. I know the bike is currently outside in the nasty weather, but the previous owner bought it and stored it for 3 years in a heated garage, never touched it. Previous owner might have done some things, again probably stored inside due to the lack of corrosion ('freshly' powdercoated frame etc). It's not been on the road since 1997 I don't think!

[Matt]

Years ago I bought a V65sp that had sat for a while, the clutch was permanently engaged as well. I got it rolling and into second gear, knocked it on gas/off gas a few times and it broke free.

My wife rode it to the Kansas and Arkansas national rally back in the early '90s. 

Matt

[Huzo]

If this is not a good idea I'll stand corrected. Am I correct in assuming you said you can now pull the clutch lever in all the way ? If you can, roll the bike down a hill at about 20 kph, GENTLY try to get the bike into second gear with the clutch in, if you can do this, hold the clutch in and try to ride back up the hill with the clutch pulled in, it will almost certainly crack free, then do a few gentle starts in first gear and if that's all your original problem was then you should be ok. If anyone thinks this is butchery, then I'd be happy to listen to them. Ideally, we all know the thing to do is pull it apart and clean, lubricate appropriately.

[huub]

just a few remarks:
part D can wear to the point of having a hole worn through by the push rod
you can fit the clutch plate the wrong way around , and it will seize
i suppose you checked the adjustment on the back of the gearbox? 

[Kiwi_Roy]

While you have the gearbox off can you make some sort of rig to push on the cup (part D lower picture). You might be able to see if the plate E is lifting evenly.
If you can push the cup even 1/8" the plate C should be able to move.

I'm thinking something like a length of angle iron bolted across the bell housing bolts with some 1/4" ready rod to push on the cup

Have you inspected the clutch plate to make sure it's not coming apart, loose rivets etc?

[v65tt]

Check the rear thrust bearing at the back of the gearbox ( part c in your diagram)

If the clutch is very heavy or stuck the bearing may have collapsed

[papercutout]

Hey all, bit busy yesterday, out all night, rebuilt bike today so finally a reply!

Despite having had most of it apart before, yesterday we whipped the box back off, clutch, etc. ALL of it. Then put it back together, built the bike up to a state where I could pull the clutch lever, and for some reason it now works! There's a bit of drag, but with the clutch pulled the rear wheel will rotate when in gear now!

Regarding Kiwi-Roy's comment - both 'plates' of the clutch do shift side to side, but not outwards. Slightly loose rivets. Measured the clutch, 7mm thick =- so half way through it's life. Not quite sure why it'd be like that...

Huub - it's not worn through.

v65tt - the thrust bearing is fine, checked that (and posted about it!) a while back.


Thanks all, very glad to have her almost done now, just a tiny bit more wiring (for the clocks) and she'll be ready to go! As she sits now:

[Kiwi_Roy]

Looks NIce 

[kevdog3019]

It certainly looks more aggressive than stock.  I like it! 

[Tom]

Good to hear that the problem is solved.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Beautiful bike..I really like that look.
But.
Why in the world did you put it back together with a half worn clutch plate? Especially one with

Slightly loose rivets.

That Shirley  isn't right. The failure on the small block clutch is generally a spring getting loose followed in short order by a hailstorm of parts flying around in the bell housing. It sounds to me as if yours is on it's way. <shrug>

[kevdog3019]

Beautiful bike..I really like that look.
But.
Why in the world did you put it back together with a half worn clutch plate? Especially one with That Shirley  isn't right. The failure on the small block clutch is generally a spring getting loose followed in short order by a hailstorm of parts flying around in the bell housing. It sounds to me as if yours is on it's way. <shrug>

I have to agree with this ^^
Pulling the engine isn't fun and he's right about the occasional failure being springs letting loose. Too late now.

[Chuck in Indiana]

Actually, a small block is easy to change out a clutch plate. Since you've already had it apart, I'm saying 2 hours to put in a new one, then reassembly. No special tools, no big deal.

[Tom]

OK......tech question here.  With the loose rivets, couldn't one flatten the rivets for a tighter bond as a temporary fix?  While waiting for a new clutch? 

[Antietam Classic Cycle]

OK......tech question here.  With the loose rivets, couldn't one flatten the rivets for a tighter bond as a temporary fix?  While waiting for a new clutch?

Mark Etheridge used to do this with big-block plates.

[Tom]

OK.  I was just thinking in the box and working with what you'd have at the time.