Tunerpro mapping and tuning for open loop 15m computer California Quota etc.

[Esmae Watson]

If you want to skip the story of why I started this thread go to the next post down.

I'm surprised I haven't seen more threads on using Tunerpro combined with an AFR meter and Guzzidiag. But I know I'm not the only one. So I started this thread to get a little help from the experts. The ones I know of are Pauldaytona, Beetle and Meinolf, so if any of you guys can chime in with your wisdom that would be greatly appreciated and anyone else that can help. Also I wanted to keep this thread separate to the Tunerpro tutorial discussion as this is a tuning thread.

A basic rundown on why I chose to tune myself is I bought the 2000 California special and it had a slight miss. When I bought it the stock pipes had been drilled out and holes put in the airbox. I've never owned a fuel injected bike before so I was thrown into the deep end. I had to sell my 1995 1100 california to purchase this one and swapped over the staintune mufflers, original airbox lid and K&N filter to the new one before I sold it. Which as a combination made things worse. So I researched a bit and thought the TPS and balance might be the issue, so I balanced the throttle bodies to no avail then bit the bullet and  bought a new TPS from Cycleworks but it still had a serious stumble, worse than before, I noted that the original TPS reading was quite advanced which is apparently a bandaid fix for a lean condition as it richens the mixture but also advances the timing. By the way I balanced the throttle bodies about 5 times with the same result every time.

So I started mucking about with Guzzidiag, richening the CO trim to lose the stumble(s) another bandaid fix, then I looked into the Dynojet Power Commander ECU controller and after a bit of research like downloading the software and example maps etc realised that if I could analyse this data myself I could do a better job of tuning with Tunerpro (fine tune the fuel maps, acceleration enrichment, cold start maps) but the issue was getting a reading of what was going on, so it was either a dyno run - tune myself and back to the dyno for another run or I could get myself a Air Fuel Ratio analyser. I went with the second option (innovate motorsports LM-2, not the best choice after further research and comments) and have been toying around with it over the last month, making little changes here and there (with the help of the above mentioned people) and the bike is just incredible now. I still have a long way to go ironing out the map but now that I kind of have my head around it I'm really enjoying to the point that I have a new hobby.

To start with my map was completely out of whack so Paul and Beetle sent me the stock map for my bike which helped immensely but didn't cure the lean condition, Meinhof sent me his personal map that he has tuned from his Jackal which had a lot of great bit's that I poached and modified for my own. Since then I've been trickling away at getting my Air fuel ratio down to around the 13:1 mark with great success.

If Guzzidiag, Tunerpro and AFR logging meters were around when these bikes were first bought out this would all be a different story (i'm pretty sure there would be bugger all Dynojet Power Commanders out there) but 15 years down the track they're old technology but at the same time still pretty exciting for me. I'm over the hardest part of the tuning process now and getting into the finer tuning part of it all now, I wrote the big blurb above so if there are any helpful tips posted it will help others that are googling for answers.

[Esmae Watson]

I'm really looking for good discussion on why people have aimed at certain Air fuel ratio mixtures on guzzi's throughout the rev range and in particular acceleration enrichment (not just at wide open throttle)

Target AFR's

I know with Water cooled engines your target AFR is about 2 above the target for Air cooled engines, my question is: Is this the same throughout the target AFR range (around 2 less than for water cooled)?



I've smoothed the map out quite well at cruise condition but the enrichment is still a bit off, I'm wondering how to tune the Acceleration enrichment map. Hard to describe but do you aim for the RPM over or at the "RPM region" I'll probably figure it out but if someone can give some pointers that would be great. I've already played with the accel enrichment but the AFR meter is not giving the most inconsistent results during mid or hard acceleration.

[pete roper]

Please don't include me, (My previous incarnation was Vasco DG.) in this! It's way, way above my pay scale! My only contribution is to try to de-mystify and make entertaining the idea that nobody needs to be any more scared of FI than they do of points and carbs.

Pete

[Esmae Watson]

No worries Pete, I've relieved you from duty. I thought you were still going by Vasco. Yes I'm starting to feel less daunted by the EFI thing than I was originally. But it took some long hours staring at maps and readouts of air fuel mixtures till I felt comfortable enough to make changes, now that I have a system worked out I'm doing it all fearlessly and painlessly.

[beetle]

AFR of 13.0 is too rich for a 2V Guzzi. Maybe at the high end only. Too rich for cruise. Aim for 13.5 average.

[pete roper]

Excellent! As with most stuff, ask and you shall receive. Those who try and tell you it's all made of 'Special', 'Secret' stuff are full of shit.

Just sayin'.......

[Esmae Watson]

No worries, I'll get it back up there, what about when I give it a bit of a stab like when overtaking etc. Do I tune the accel enrichment to try and achieve something like 12:1 or try and keep that around a consistent 13.5 also? I was under the impression that a richer mix under acceleration and load will provide better power in most cases (not all)

[beetle]

Unfortunately, you can't simply apply numbers by the book. I think 12.0 is too rich. Aim for 12.5 - 12.7 under WOT. It's a Cali, not a race bike.

[Esmae Watson]

No problem, thanks for the reply, I know it's only a cali but while I'm mucking about with it I'm keen to improve things a little, not to the extreme just till it's better than average.

[pauldaytona]

This is fine, people should care, and you can. So post some logworks graphs or you driving results. Then we can see what you have now.

[Esmae Watson]

No worries Paul, I'm going camping for 4 days so I'll post them when I get back. It's gone from running around 14-14.5 around town to about 13 now after some changes to the maps, it ran terribly at around 14 and now at around 13-13.5 it's considerably different. I'm pretty sure it's all close but because I've bought the o2 analyser i'm pretty commited to trying to get it near perfect.

[Meinolf]

Hi Esmae,

more details about your setup, especially which BIN you are using, are needed for an intelligent discussion and  well-founded replies to your questions.

I'm really looking for good discussion on why people have aimed at certain Air fuel ratio mixtures on guzzi's throughout the rev range and in particular acceleration enrichment (not just at wide open throttle)

I'm sure you are familiar with the basic correlations between power, efficiency and AFR  http://www.endtuning.com/images/airfuel.jpg

and the underlying theory of acceleration / deceleration enrichment http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/xtau.htm

My target, both on the V11 and California Jackal, is to achieve, sorted by order of priority
- best drivability and responsiveness
- best economy
- best performance / power

Hence the target Lambda map (did I sent it with my email?) I am using. Which also has transitions areas to cater to the interpolation function of the program code.





And you should understand the correlation between AFR and ignition timing.




I personally don't see why one wouldn't want to have highest power (which equals torque) on a Cali in all load conditions.

Analyzing your driving style will give you hints where and how to change and optimize. The channel statistics (for example rpm) in Logwork will show you where you are spending most of your time.





My experience is that, before beginning to change the acceleration map, both base fuel maps must be according to your targets and sync'ed.

And only after this has been done for all breakpoints you can get to while road logging to begin changing the acceleration map values to achieve the desired AFR. Which typically would the one giving you the best power.

Cheers
Meinolf

[Esmae Watson]

Thanks Meinolf, I'm away for a few days but I'll post some images when I get back.

The Bin I'm using is originally from a 2002 California special but I've used parts from your map to modify it (timing, barometric and something else that slips my mind at the moment). I took your timing and ran with it for one short run but I noticed pinging in certain areas under load so I took the average between the original timing values and yours and went with that, it all seems to have improved torque and throttle response particularly in the mid to high rev range.

The only modifications to my setup are a K&N Air filter and Staintune mufflers (similar to conti) also I should mention mine is open loop

I'm sure you are familiar with the basic correlations between power, efficiency and AFR  http://www.endtuning.com/images/airfuel.jpg

This one I understand but have read that the mixture must be richer for air cooled engines

and the underlying theory of acceleration / deceleration enrichment http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/xtau.htm

This one will take a lot more studying until I can wrap my head around it.

My target, both on the V11 and California Jackal, is to achieve, sorted by order of priority
- best drivability and responsiveness
- best economy
- best performance / power

Hence the target Lambda map (did I sent it with my email?) I am using. Which also has transitions areas to cater to the interpolation function of the program code.

This I understand but my map will need further refinements before I can get it to that stage.

My experience is that, before beginning to change the acceleration map, both base fuel maps must be according to your targets and sync'ed.

And only after this has been done for all breakpoints you can get to while road logging to begin changing the acceleration map values to achieve the desired AFR. Which typically would the one giving you the best power.

OK this is perfect advice, I'll get my AFR at cruise (throughout the rev range and throttle positions) exactly where I need it to be before touching the Accel enrichment. Also I haven't even looked at the right cylinder map yet so will need a couple more weeks till I have this ready.

Thanks everybody for your input, when I get back I'll put some of my readings up and get stuck back into trying to get these base maps right.

[Meinolf]

Hi Esmae,

The Bin I'm using is originally from a 2002 California special but I've used parts from your map to modify it (timing, barometric and something else that slips my mind at the moment). I took your timing and ran with it for one short run but I noticed pinging in certain areas under load so I took the average between the original timing values and yours and went with that, it all seems to have improved torque and throttle response particularly in the mid to high rev range.

if your starting point is the 616.003.8100 GCE3901, then you've got a problem with re-using tables and scalars from my BIN. The program code is different and so are many of the start addresses. I am surprised that the engine ran at all. Look at below picture for some!!! of the major differences.





So you either use my BIN or create a XDF for the 616.003.8100 GCE3901 and use it when transplanting snippets.

And even if you have a BIN with the same program code as starting point, then just copying a table won't work. I have modified many breakpoints, so these need to be changed as well.

It really is a bit more complicated than just copy & paste.

Cheers
Meinolf

[Meinolf]

Hi Esmae,

...but have read that the mixture must be richer for air cooled engines

yes, using the cooling effect of an overly rich mixture is one (inelegant) approach. But hardly a concern for antique engines.

Forget about it.

Cheers
Meinolf

[pauldaytona]

That cali map has some different map bases. So the start enrichment is on 0xB7f8

[Meinolf]

Hi Paul,

That cali map has some different map bases. So the start enrichment is on 0xB7f8

beg to differ, it starts at 0xB7B8.

Cheers
Meinolf

[pauldaytona]

Hi Paul,

beg to differ, it starts at 0xB7B8.

Cheers
Meinolf

Meinolf,

this is how it looks here at B7F8, What is different at yours?

[Meinolf]

Hi Paul,

not B7F8. The enrichment map starts at B7B8.





Look at the values in your screenshot at 500 and 0 revolutions. They don't rhyme...

Cheers
Meinolf

[pauldaytona]

Meinolf, thats correct for allmost all 15m maps, but the 61600.381.00_GCE390 1_California_Specia l I have here is different there.